They are burying them onto to straight dirt!!!!    EEWWWW

It was all about the visual of the Rodney King case. I'm sure if the citizens of New York had a visual of the encounter it would have been the same outcome or perhaps worse than the Rodney King riots.

That is just very sad.

How sad, the bodies are so small...

While it may seem a little unsanitary to bury the deceased like this, it follows their religious beliefs, and is much more sound for the environment.

At the rate we are going, the US will run out of place to bury people in 20 years. Asia is experiencing this now. We also fill the earth with chemicals used to embalm people; toxic chemicals.

A grave is just a parking spot for the body. You won't need it, and neither does the earth or its inhabitants.

Now, as for the photo; Heartbreaking.

BIASED MEDIA!! ISRAELI CIVILIANS ARE KILLED EVERY DAY BY PALESTINIAN TERRORISTS AND NO ONE SAYS A WORD, BUT THE MOMENT THE TABLES ARE TURNED THE MEDIA ATTACKS ISRAEL!!!

The children.  Of all the tragedies of war their suffering and death stands above all.

This pic provides a vivid perspective on the meaning of "collateral damage".  Truly gut-wrenching.

This is really sad, almost no emotion on the men's faces...
We even take funerals for granted here in the States...
ok guys 3rd in long jump today, I have districts on Saturday, keep your fingers crossed!!

Burial practices are varied all over the world. In the US, I know we tend to shy away from death and the details that come with it. These people are doing what they can? maybe all that they can do.....

We pay more attention to the way we bury out pets.  We gripe about everything and really do not know how fortunate we are.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU
HAAAAAPPY BIIIRRTTHDAYYY TO BULL....hold that note....
happy birthday to you....birthday kisses....and spankings of course.

Bull - join us at the surf lesson

OK, I'm on my way....Here's a song for you guys...sung to "Me and Julio...Down by the schoolyard"...
  I'm on my wayyy...
  I know just where I'm going....
  I'm on my way...
  Headed to Maine from Florida.

  Look out Policemennnn,
  Don't pull me over...

  It's just me and the green car...Out on the Highway...
  It's just me and the green car...Out on the Highway.....

See ya soon

If I look at the faces and emotions of these people, they look like it's second nature to them. They seem to be burying this family as if they've been doing this for others for a long time and it's just, "oh just one more person or family". There's no emotion of sadness, hurt, or grief. But, it gives me a relief to see that at least this family is getting a burial than no burial.

Thank you for showing this.. the world need to see what the people of palestine are going through.. This is just like the holocust,, Shame on Israel for killing so many innocent children..

Sad. blocks covered with sand and more blocks.

Sad, indeed... This is how I bury my pets!!!!  Couldn't they at least have put the bodies in a wooden box?  Yet, maybe they didn't have the means to bury their loved ones that way, and this was their only alternative???  Kind of looks like the area is closed in with the cement blocks, like a cement coffin!  Who knows, could be that's best.

God rest their souls... it's always such a tragedy to witness the burial of young children.  In a way, it may have been a blessing in disguise that the mother was killed too.  For the mother to have survived and seen her children die in that way, would have killed me... or I would have wished I'd died with them!  

did they cut them up in little pieces before burying them?  Terrible.

I just cannot even think about this.  I have paid more respect when I have buried pets.

Thank God I am American.

This is what really goes on in the evil state of Israel!

So many "newbies" coming in lately... just wanted to say Hi and Welcome to you all.

As an American I feel so far removed from the hardships of people in other countries.  Even the worse in America can be the best in other places around the world

BingNY-I know I know I know...you know who said this was all going to happen?  Christ!!!  CLEARLY it is biased!  That is the world we live in now, it sucks.

Side-note, what a wonderful picture to sing happy birthday on!!! Sick.

am-You are a fool.  They fight back!!!  It is their right.  And for the record, ALL OF THAT LAND BELONGS TO THEM.

FYI-I am not Jewish, I am a Christian who recognizes God's chosen people.

You are all warned, if you are an enemy of Israel, bad things beyond your understanding are coming your way.  

So small...the bodies are...that we put in ground due of bombs from afar.
So sad...the poor children.

AP: Loved the song! Brought back many, many great memories. Keep on keepin on...hope you make it home soon! Best Wishes!

SouthernLady: I'm still here!! Of course now I feel like a newbie! :)

Christa!! You go girl!! Show them how it's done!! Good luck! You make us proud!!

I don't believe it matters how or where it's done...death is our reality and sorrow so often our companion. We are not insulated. Joy, love, warmth, acceptance our choice and this picture brings that back home to me.

To me, the men show respect in their actions. Well said MT. Thank you for the welcome SouthernLady. Peace.

The sad part about a war where missiles, bombs, and projectiles are launched at targets from a safe stand-off distance (for those doing the shooting) is that people in close proximity to the terrorist being shot at get caught up in the aftermath.  Terrorist need to stop hiding behind their women and children (and it would be great if they'd only blow themselves up when they commit suicide instead of taking innocent bystanders with them).  The real problem lies in the fact that you have two enemies that live close to each other and they only want to see the other dead.  Can you say, "NO WIN SCENARIO!"?

With this image, the Bell image,the LDS image and the multitude of Obama/Clinton images

The answer is...
Politics
Religion
Race relations

The question is...
Name  things that were designed to unite that result in division.

Why? Because "in all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane"
OW.

the burial follows religious beliefs, so overwhelmingly sad...but people should see what the israeli people are doing to the palestinians...cant understand anyone having sympathy for israelis...

Jordon, since you are a Christian, you should know (I credit a friend of mine for this as she just had a death in her family and brought this to my attention) that you should cry when babies are born and rejoice when there is a death.  As sad as this is, those babies and families are in a much better place, wouldn't you agree?  

You don't have to be so incredibly critical of ducky.  

Especially not on my birthday, dude.

Bull, I will give you that on the comment to Oregon; I didn't need to react that way (though it is still a little messed up).  Happy Birthday.

Though I do believe that children, when they die, go to Heaven.  I actually believe Jews who never accept Christ as their God go to Hell (EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE HIS CHOSEN)...so no.  

Those family members lost children who have never really lived at all.  That is sad, no where in my Bible does it say this is a good thing regardless of where they go.  This is the result of a fallen mankind...it is God's mercy that any of us receive Salvation.

My name is spelled J-O-R-D-A-N, my mother is a hippie and named me after the river (no joke).

Guys--y'all need to chill about the method of burial in a big way. For one thing, ways of burial are only cultural. Our boxes are only part of our culture. The absence or presence of a box does not in any way indicate an absence or presence of respect. For another, you don't see these people experiencing supreme self-loathing OR a lack of grief because they didn't pay ten thousand dollars to have people interred in huge caskets. They're burying people, and they understand that probably in a deeper way than we do, simply because this method of burial is so much more personal and hands-on.

Bull ...thats what he does...its all good baby....for it to affect me he would have to matter...




you have a great birthday...




no-one has a right to judge whats in my heart, but The Lord....but still they try.

So Jordan, how does the Old testament's gleeful racist glorification of acts of genocide give them rightful title to the land of palestine today?  Seems like commiting crimes against humanity ought to void the deed.

How do we want to be remembered?  A body is just a vessel and sometimes a body can be a vehicle for one society to express values that are hostile to another society.

There is a Maori tale of a man, grievously injured in battle, who begs his comrades to quickly cut off his head and retreat with it so that it won't be appropriated, shrunken, and displayed as a trophy by the enemy. As a corollary, recall the visceral power of the image of American dead being dragged through the streets by crowds of Somalis. When Zaire's kleptocratic ruler Mobutu was in the final days of his dictatorship, he is believed to have spent his time exhuming the bones of his ancestors so that they would not be desecrated by rebels.

Likewise, even though there was no immediate threat of hostility when the United States gave up the Panama Canal, bodies were disinterred from the American cemetery and shipped home along with the microwave ovens and VCR's.

Oregon-I never said anything about your heart, I said it was disgusting to start singing happy birthday while there is a picture of children being put into the ground.  You are just not smart, it is not your fault.  By the way, your definition of judgement was lost in translation.  God is talking about a different kind of judgement (go learn some latin)

jdtseatllewa-lets just ask the question and leave out the mumbo jumbo please....ahhh who am I kidding, I loved your response actually.  It was a good one, I cannot justify it except to say both sides are guilty of it, but my God tells me it belongs to the Hebrews and so I cannot deny that.

well played...you forced me to use the faith card, and I do not like to do so when in a debate.

jdtseattle, stick around please.

Bull, you see what happens when I say sorry?

What else is there to do in Palestine other than to fight and bury people. It looks like there are a lot of people pitching in to help, probably because they have no jobs and have their thumbs up their bums when they aren't too busy praying.I have a hard time feeling sorry for these ignorant third world countries and their people. If they had any sense, they would revolt against people like Yassar Arafat who suppress them into absolute poverty.

Bull-no one can know that for sure, there is such thing as an age of innocense for the children though...

Lord save me, I agree with Jordan. I thought the birthday song was a little insensitive on the photo of a child being layed to rest.

That being said, I really doubt that there is another blogger on this site with as big a heart as O'Girl. She's a loving, caring, forgiving, kind-souled person. Love ya O!

The photo has movement like an Escher painting.  On the left the people are going into the earth, and on the right they are climbing out.

MTfLA  Many good points.
American burial practices are irrational.  The sooner the atoms in
our bodies (the only kinds of bricks
that can build living beings) can
be used to create more life, the better. Burial in a simple shroud
with no embalming makes the most sense.  Cremation should be reserved
for deceased whose remains pose an
infectious threat to others.

Folks please take a giant step back out of American culture in the name of perspective.  Seems lots of posts are condemning the way these dead are being buried - difficult as it may be we should not be judging that.  As several well-written posts have said, HOW they are laid to rest is entirely a matter of culture.  Don't let that distract you from what I think is the real message from this pic; that the tragedy of this conflict cuts deepest when it kills kids.

'Bull, you see what happens when I say sorry?'





seriously...at what point did you say 'sorry'...must of missed it...


Jordan...you just want my attention....and you remind me of a small child when you dont get it....

Many of these comments are ridiculous.  You are "grossed out" that they are not burying them in boxes?  Are you kidding? Have you nothing more important to say about this?  These are dead children.
The photo is "disturbing" because they are using "their hands and concrete blocks to bury" them?!?  What are they supposed to use- these people are kept in a state of perpetual poverty...  more often than not they throw sticks and stones against soliders armed to the teeth with the best weapons U.S. money can buy.  
"Biased media" because this is reported?  Do you actually READ the news?  How many Palistinian civilians die for each Isreali solider?

This picture is tragic, period.  The circumstances could be any where, any when, and they'd still be tragic.  Stop complaining about being grossed out, stop demonizing these people and stop looking for bias where there is none- grow up, get an ounce of compassion and be decent human beings.

Actually I think there is something deeply spiritual about burying your own dead, as opposed to the antiseptic American practice of paying some one to do your dirty work. Personally I want to be buried like this.

Divine Intervention vs. Moral Agency

Anyone care to take on this debate with me?

Jordon and Ducky, I can't get in the middle of you two.  

But, ya'll I would like to welcome my friend to the photoblog...

waiting for comets...

she has posted a couple things on here so welcome!  Now, take yer shoes off and jump into the mosh pit, girl!

BTW, cometgirl, that was purrty profound...WHUR'D yew lurn to RITE Laike dat?  Yuk Yuk, snort, snort!

Five years ago today, my father died. The following Monday I took my mother to the funeral home to take care of some business and we were informed that Daddy's cremains were there and ready to be taken home.  One of the employees of the funeral home placed the container, a marble box big enough for two sets of ashes, his and mama's, into the back seat of my car.  When we got back to Mama's house, it was up to me to carry the box inside.  It was, by far, the heaviest thing I have ever carried, though I have lifted things that amounted to many more pounds.  I repositioned the box, letting it fall back toward my chest, to get a better grip on it and as I did this I heard the contents of the box shift and I remembered that those contents said "I love you" to me just six days earlier. For a moment, I felt it was unfair that I should have this responsibility, that being the only girl, with three strong brothers, I was the one to carry this heavy load.  But then it occurred to me that I had the honor to carry Daddy back home.  Hands on does make a difference.

How many photos have been shown on this blog of Israeli funerals at the hands of Palestinian terrorits? This is so obviously pushing the leftist viewpoint. When Palestinians stop firing rockets and committing other acts of random terror, Israel will stop having to chase and kill them and unfortunately sometimes inflict collateral damage on civilians. Palestinian thugs bring this on those families by trying to hide among them instead of meeting the Israelis on the open battlefield. Remember, the world doesn't hate the USA and Israel, only leftists do!

Rose, you and I both know I cannot explain this.  It is beyond man's logic and appears to be a contradiction.  

I actually believe free will does not truely exist and only man's perception of it exists  Meaning, we need to believe we are making are own choices; and to us it appears as if we are, but in reality, we are part of something way bigger that was decided before we were even created.  Of course "before" does not exist because time is relative to space and matter, so this can even get more complicated.

Short answer, I cannot and I would never ask you to accept ignorance (I know I have not)...this is a faith as I am sure you have heard OVER AND OVER (much to your annoyance-I used to be agnostic).  His existence cannot be prooved, if it were, we would have no choice yet to serve Him...that is the free will He gave us.  A world where we are not forced to love Him...if we knew Him, we could not avoid this.

so you win the debate...congrats, but it is not enough to get me to faulter in my faith; I have see WAY too much on the pro side for one con to know me off.

If you are an agnostic, I cannot argue that (because logically, I will admit, I want to be an agnostic); if you are an atheist though, bring it.

Jordan, I never stated what side I was for and it appears I already have won, I’ll take it. But your response I see potential… I am not an atheist, but consider it brought.

For what cause did He come into the world? Clearly to save the world, that establishes right there that before the world was we needed a savior-hence divine intervention…

But then again to believe that requires faith, in short agency…  

So what does that tell us, that agency is connected with predestined ideas and binding traditions?  Time is relative, God is constant and consistent right?  What are we?

Sinning is inevitable, atoning grace is undeniable but both are incomprehensible…

Truth is truth right? So don’t ya think that you should be able to argue my original question? Not complaining just stating a point, throwing out questions and kicking around ideas I rather enjoy, and yes, I know that you cannot explain this nor can I for that matter, it has been on my mind as of late and getting other inputs is refreshing…  

If the Palestinians really wanted to stop having to bury their children, then maybe they should try leaving the Israelis alone.

I have no sympathy for those people.  

It shouldn't matter that they are not being buried in the same matter North American society; what should be focused on is the tragedy of the loss of a mother and her children.

It shouldn't matter that they are not being buried in the same matter North American society; what should be focused on is the tragedy of the loss of a mother and her children.

welcome waitingforcomets - a friend of Bull's is our friend too!

i like your name - are you interested in astronomy or does your name refer to something else?  (not trying to pry:  it's just that i like astronomy and "collect" Hubble pics and pics of our solar system)

The actions of cowards brought you this photo...

Terrorists always operate this way. They dont care who gets hurt or killed BECAUSE they KNOW that there will be public out cry when civilians are injured / killed by retaliation.

This kind of death will not end untill the KING OF KINGS returns to step foot on the Mount of Olives

Rose, I gotta be honest, I do not understand anything in your post so you are going to have to clarify.

Also, I said I would only argue you if you were an atheist, how can I argue someone who takes no side?  So it is not "brought" ;)

Answer to your third paragraph, faith is a gift from God.

binding traditions?  haha, what? No idea how that relates to what we are talking about.

Answer to your 4th paragraph, creations of God with the ability to love.

Just being honest, I think you are someone else, not someone named Rose.  Also, are you aware that in the last paragraph you ask why I cannot answer your question and then you state that I cannot answer your question?

They have done this so often, it seems like just another everyday duty.  

NEOSHO: You moved me and had me in tears. I too am the only girl with three brothers. It will be five years June 19th that a stroke took my Dad. Having to make the decision to pull the plug was the hardest thing I've ever had to do thus far. But with every passing day...I hear I love you from him...I miss him dearly as I'm sure you miss yours.
They say that God doesn't give you more than you can handle...sometimes I wish he wouldn't trust me so much.

Neosho - What a wonderful heartwarming story.  Thanks for sharing.

Welcome Waitingforcomets.  You're a friend of Bull's?  Oh my.  I'll leave it that. ;)

From earth and to earth we return. This is the correct Islamic practice regarding the burial of the dead, as it was practiced by all Prophets. Leaving the body in a casket will prevent it from going back to the earth where it belongs. The Apartheid and savage killing done by Israel has been taking place for the past 60 years while the rest of the world looks the other way for fear of being branded anti-Semitic. As a kid who grew up in Lebanon, those were daily practices by the Israeli regime with full and bias support from the US and western Govts. Even when the world tries to condemn, the US always uses its veto. Unfair and Unjust world we live in where when people decide resistance, they are called terrorists.

NEOSHO - That was a touching memory of your father. Chocked me up. I did the same thing with my dad.

Hussein-the people from your homeland are the terrorists!  The land belongs to Israel and your people took it away long before 60 years ago!

How does it not blow anyone's mind that the Bible says, those who help and protect Israel will be blessed...60 years ago, about when we came out of the great depression...hmmmmmmm.  THINK!!!

If Israel is ever defeated, my God is a false.  I can lay that down for all of you.  It will never happen.  They defeated 3 countries in a matter of days for crying out loud.

Interesting times.

NEOSHO - touching, thanks for sharing.  my dad wanted to be cremated, but wanted his ashes buried with my mom - he missed her so much...

Comet----glad you found your way here
Neo---that was lovely. I did the same with my dad.

Really---I am going to start taking some of these soap boxes away---Jordie

bayaga-huh? Meaning you can debunk my statements?  Please do if you can.

Neo-Thanks for sharing...it definately makes all the difference in the world when you are more involved in the whole process. My grandfather died of lung cancer and not only did we have to see him waste away but when he passed, I was the one who went over and helped clean the body, change the clothes and go through the funeral process. I too questioned why not someone else to do this, however it's like Kajun said, sometimes we are trusted to handle alot :)

bayaga... you go, girl!

NEOSHO... like the rest of us, I feel truly thankful for your touching story.  sniff-sniff  

If I outlive my "dog", I will handcarry his ashes to the mountain in Sicily that used to be their family's, and personally spread the ashes around the rock he used to play on as a child, and where he saw the white owl the morning of his departure - symbolic??? - for his new home in the "land of opportunity"!  It will be an honor!

MickeyMass, cindysueinperu and bayaga!  Thank you all very much for the welcome!

Yes, I love comets and backyard astronomy!  I keep waiting for the next beauty like Hale-Bopp.  I really miss seeing that comet!  

and I must admit I know the Bull, we are pals and get in trouble with the rest of our cowboy gang here in the wild wild West (Arizona).  

I put my space address on here so come see me in another part of space...cyber, that is *wink*!

ordan, Oh I am definitely not luke warm on the issue, actually I would argue and will argue that of Agency.  You state or is a better word ‘believe’ that agency doesn’t truly exist just a false persona of it. I argue that it does exist, but the extent of it is contingent to our direct obedience. The agency of man is to either act or be acted upon, I will “clarify” for ya… ;)

We can act by obeying God and His commandments; as a result we are happier and receive blessings that pertain to keeping His word. Or we can be acted upon by His punishments due to our disobedience, thus dwelling in a miserable state and the judgments of God will be upon us… In short, we choose which consequence or rewards we will reap…
 
Binding traditions is reference to those religions whose practices once resembled an order of God but through wickedness and corruptness of man all significance and meaning is gone and become just that a binding tradition a false pretense of getting ones way into heaven…

The end of your post is very creative and interesting, as far as my name goes it is very legit, named after my grandma… I am aware, I didn’t ask you to answer the question I made comment of your ability to ARGUE the question, besides arguing with an atheist is pointless and tiring you would get further trying to herd cats…  

My God... your God...  
seriously... could someone just not post these comments that are so clearly just being made to provoke arguments.  

Whoever said to ignore comments to ____ and not reply...  I think I get it.

It is horrifying when one human justifies the killing of another based on some revelation. Do you think God is ever unjust? Use your reason and ask yourself, how can a Just God differentiate between one creation and another? Nonsense, this is only the works of humans who altered the bible and the word of God that was sent with the pure and blessed message of Prophet Jesus (Peace be upon him). I can assure you that I hold no Ill feelings towards you or any other human being, regardless what his faith is, even if he’s an atheist he is still a human and must be regarded as such, and a civilized human being who is God conscience will make sure to uphold and respect the dignity of every other human being, those are the exact teachings of Islam.
There’s nothing I can do for you to change your mind but it is your duty search for the truth, because when the day comes to meet God, we will be asked what it is we have done on this earth, what was our legacy as God doesn’t create anything in vain .
Regarding that the Palestine only belongs to the Jews, you are totally wrong on this point, as the people of PHALASTEIN have existed there even before prophet Abraham, the father of all prophets who came from Iraq, so if the Jews have any claim on any land, wouldn’t you agree it would be Iraq? Israel won its war due to treason on the behalf of the Arabs and certainly not due to any military superiority, where Israel’s was defeated in the summer of 2006 on the hands of a small resistance, especially when Israel used all of its might and arsenal without avail.
Please argue on facts and not fiction, keep emotions out of this because the bible you are reading is not a Christian bible but the works of Zionist groups with a mission to destroy the Christian and Jewish faith. My ancestors are the true indigenous people of that land and not now, not ever will be taken away from its rightful owners. God does not interfere! The only reason Israel continues to exist is due to our hard earning TAX dollars, and not because GOD wants it! Take away the dollar; Israel will not survive one minute!
There’s only one book on earth, where from cover to cover God is the exclusive author, it’s the Holy Quran, and it wasn’t sent to only Muslims, it was sent to all mankind, this is why it’s the fastest growing religion on earth. May peace and the blessing of God be with you and I pray that one day you may also come to see the truth.

Damn O'girl. Nothing? Did you even read my post???

All the regulars here know we "sing" Happy Birthday, harrass the birthday folks and generally laugh and have a good time on whatever blog we happen to be on when the big day arrives.  We can overlook harsh words or comments from 'newbies' or drive-bys because they don't know us.  However, we all sure know who is not a friend when he/she attacks our usual practice or a friend.  

Welcome Comets, most of us try to be peaceable.   You will find some of our remarks hilliarious and some revolting and some lame but we enjoy the MSNBC photoblog most all the time.

Thank you, lonewolf!

Hussein, first of all what a bunch of garbage! Um, not sure if you caught the irony in your own post but I sure did.... If God doesn't interfere than how did your precious "Holy Quran" come about? Hmmmmm?

Think about it...

Not only do I find fault in just about everything you blogged I also find it comical that you state that we should just argue facts and not fiction, last time I checked and correct me if I'm wrong that religion is that of faith not facts... and what is faith? Faith are things which are hoped for and not seen...  

 

justsayin.....i actually didnt mean to post it on this site, iy was a mistake, but i dont think i owe Jordan an explanation on anything, ever, so i didnt respond.

I do however want to thank you, I have had a hard week....sometimes i just get overwhelmed...and thats where i am now. And what you just said was very much needed....glad your here and on myspace....

oregon - i'm soooo happy to see you back here.  a big blog welcome back hug to you!

I would just like to tell Bing to get his facts striaght .. Funny you should speak about biased media!! Nothing justifies the murder of innocent women and children regardless of race and ethnicity and instead of turning this platform into a silly place to post our meaningless remarks, how about we get our acts together and end this misery?

No Jordan---meaning I am sending you to a corner and telling you to put a cork in it----

Rose---no matter what you name it--always comes out smelling like a rose---that was a compliment girl----well said---

Hussein--"our hard-earning tax-dollars"
----that sounded like a "WE" statement... I take it you live in the great United States of American----and not the Middle East----interesting  

MickieMasssie................thank you...hugging back....

You people talking about how glad you are to be "American", you people dont realize how good we have it, they cant afford the luxury we have, I know.

I went to India this past summer, and you know what, half the stuff was shacks, manure and what not.

DONT YOU BRING THE FACT UP THAT YOU GIVE YOUR PET MORE RESPECT, ALRIGHT? JEEZ, I HOPE THE PEOPLE WHO EVEN BRING THAT UP ROT IN HELL, PEOPLE CANT AFFORD IT, THIS IS THEIR CULTURE, NOT EVERYONE BURIES PEOPLE IN COFFINS OK?

Welcome to the Comet!! Any friend of Bull's in a friend of mine! Wild, wild west - yep - would love to go there! I'm sure that ya'll can rope up some phillies and have a grand ole' time! Again..welcome:)

NaviT: I'm with you...I know that these poor people can't afford burials. I'm with the "ashes to ashes, dust to dust" thing...that's the way I wanna go...cremation - so that I can go back into the earth. I fear however that I won't be able to be distributed as I'd like. People were arrested down here lately for disposing of his father's ashes in a river, as he wished. Maybe I'll just have whoever do a drive by...ha! No offense anyone...just being me!

NaviT, Rot in Hell, huh?  Serious statement for someone who doesn't know me.  

As a matter of fact, I do know how good I have it, which is why I'm glad I do have it so good and very glad that I am American.  I have been all over the world and I know how rich I am for all these experiences.  

You want to start something with me?  





Bring it, Jack.

I am so sorry to say this "everyone of you that thinks that Israel is the only ones to blame for this tragedy, y'all are as crazy as Hamas, and the Palestinians".  If you think that Israel just shoots rockets for the fun of it, please go visit the town of Sderot in Israel for 1 day and let 4200 rockets fall on you.  Israel is just protecting herself and her citizens from the enemy.
You should read up on it before you make a comment.
To the publishers of this photo: where are the pictures of the 8 students blown up in a Yesheva, and the gunman who then blew himself up?  Hello--why is every story that is being told about the wars that are going on in this world only 1 sided--in order to be a war there needs to be 2 sides:Hamas/Palistinens VS Israel, US forces VS Insurgents in Iraq.  We all need to wake up and see that we are not alone in this--what we do does affect others in this world.

Bayaga, I dig the compliment, smelling of something awesome is no way a bad thing. Thanks, Chicka

Waiting for Godot, I mean Hussein.. ha ha

Hussein - You throw out the word "truth" like you own it.  'Ye shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free.'  Don't blame the US for your country's problems.  If you hate us that much, GO HOME!

awe---Rose---been a long time these old bones have been called a chicka--thanks--and yes---still waiting for a response from Hussein----

Hussein- I just want you to know that not everyone who reads these posts is mindlessly pro-Israel. Perhaps it's because I wasn't raised Christian. But I was raised in America with excellent access to independent media. Palestine is a sovereign nation that deserves equal treatment. I don't condone the actions of Hamas- terrorism and violence are pointless and destructive- but the people of the occupied territories *are* being tortured- by Israel. It's hard to maintain a level head when you have no fuel, water, food, work, schooling or freedom. Hamas is evil- but I feel for the people of Palestine and the pain they feel as they bury their children.

Yet not to thine eternal resting-place
Shalt thou retire alone, nor couldst thou wish
Couch more magnificent. Thou shalt lie down
With patriarchs of the infant world -- with kings,
The powerful of the earth -- the wise, the good,
Fair forms, and hoary seers of ages past,
All in one mighty sepulchre.


-From "Thanatopsis" by W.C. Bryant

Stryder, you have a good point.

bayaga, good one.

oregongirl, glad you are back!

Kajun,  Thanks, a million!

Bull, I know you and agree with you.

NaviT, I would apologize if I were you.  

Phaedra---very well said----and I agree on both sides of the problem----however, I also have access to independent media--- and over 60 some odd years I have come to learn that "news" is just as basis as any news that you may see on the network or read in the papers.  I read on the average of 30 papers around the world in their native tongue---then I piece the news together----but you know what---it is still bias----for you factor into it your own belief system----until that changes---nothing will change.  I feel for any soldier who must fight---he is doing what his country has asked of him---I hold no ill feelings towards him....I feel as they bury their children---but I cannot understand a government who will bring harm to its own children as Hamas has.

Just thought I'd chime in late on Duckie's behalf -

Unless your willing to stop celebrating holidays completely, get over it. Children die every day as a result of U.S. policies we all supported. The picture just juxtaposes it and makes the reality of dead children, birthdays, and the continual revolutions of the world all that more present in our heads. So, happy belated birthday Bull!

On a side note, I would invite anyone here to view funerals of other cultures. The protestant stoicism which marks ours is so very different (maybe even to our shame) from theirs.

justjarod, just as wedding ceremonies are different all over the world, so are burials.  There is a sacred river in India that is becoming so toxic from people disposing the dead there it is dangerous to be near the water, yet the native people still revere this river so much that they still bathe and drink from the sacred waters right beside decaying bodies.  Also interesting is to see how modern cemetaries evolved.  

Waiting is correct----to the Hinduism there are 7 sacred rivers in India-  the Ganges, and the Godavari, Kaveri, Narmada, Sarasvati, Sindhu and Yamuna Rivers. According to Hindu beliefs, those who bathe in the Ganges or who leave part of  themselves (hair, bones of the dead) on the left bank of the river will reach paradise.

Funeral rites are always held near rivers; the son of the deceased pours water on the burning funeral pyre so that the soul cannot escape and return to Earth as a ghost. When the fire reaches the deceased’s skull, the mourners bathe and then go home. The ashes are collected three days after cremation, and several days later, are thrown into a holy river.

The story of the Great Flood is contained in some Hindu scriptures, and tells the tale of how Manu, the first man, was rescued from the flood by a fish, who lead him to the Himalayas until the waters receded. In the study of different religions-----one usually finds the story of the great flood---just asking Jordan.

It's very sad that there is so much preaching about who't right and who's wrong.   Fact is people are dying all over the world and how or if they are buried is cultural or sometimes based on necessity, as it may be here.  My remark about my pet may have sounded like they were not paying attention to what they were doing and that was not my intent, first day or so post.
I only to bring to light that we are so well blessed that we can afford pet ammenities for their burial if we choose and our circumstances do not dictate that our dead be buried in the manner almost immediatedly.  I agree with whomever about the more personal touch of attending to the burial details of your own loved ones.  It does make it more personal and more real for you.  We've used a family cementary for years and we've dug a lot of graves ourself.

Oregon and Happy Birthday.  Again, we just do birthdays when the come up and with the way things having been being posted or not here lately, did not one stop to think that it was meant for another picture, or another day.  Lots of posts have been on the wrong page these days.  Besides, this has been our playful message board for a large group of us, no matter what's the photo is!!!!!! THINK

Navit:  I have the privilege of knowing that I will not rot in hell, no matter what your wishes for me are.!  

There sure is a lot of argument about who is right, Isarel or Palestine.  I think we have diplomats and people trying to resolve the situation and both sides are present here but we cannot fight the war here.  It does no go to shout blame and epithets at everyone here.  It just turns a nice place into a unpleasant one.

Jordan, you are so busy attacking everyone over everything and you can not even make one post that makes any sense whatsoever.  You say you are a Christian and maybe you are, but if so, you must be a new one.  You are using the Bible to make your point but you make it like a two sided sword. You can't have it both ways. Good example is your 4/30 rant. Perhaps  a really good Bible Study Group or a Bible study guide might help you.  I'm sure you are earnest in trying to spread the gospel, but it needs to be done in a right and just manner.  Whenever you want to do something like that, I have learned that it really helps to take some time to think about the right way to handle something and ask myself, "How do I think Jesus would handle this?  It has saved me some headaches!

Bull's comment about the children being saved by their death was right on.  Until they are old enough to hear and understand Christ's words and make the decision to accept or reject Christ, they will be in Heaven regardles of what religion the parents are trying to train into them.  So, in the midst of the tradgey, there is something good for the children that God loves and takes care of.

Sadly there are going to be wars and rumors of wars until the end.  We cannot control what the whole world does from America and I think out policy has been trying to help when and where it can.  If we don't like what our government is doing with our money, we ALL need to start flooding our elected officials with letters stating so and tell them what we would like to see.  If that doesn't help, vote for someone else next election!

lonewolf, darlin' I take my hat off to you.  Awesome.

It's very sad that there is so much preaching about who't right and who's wrong.   Fact is people are dying all over the world and how or if they are buried is cultural or sometimes based on necessity, as it may be here.  My remark about my pet may have sounded like they were not paying attention to what they were doing and that was not my intent, first day or so post.
I only to bring to light that we are so well blessed that we can afford pet ammenities for their burial if we choose and our circumstances do not dictate that our dead be buried in the manner almost immediatedly.  I agree with whomever about the more personal touch of attending to the burial details of your own loved ones.  It does make it more personal and more real for you.  We've used a family cementary for years and we've dug a lot of graves ourself.

Oregon and Happy Birthday.  Again, we just do birthdays when the come up and with the way things having been being posted or not here lately, did not one stop to think that it was meant for another picture, or another day.  Lots of posts have been on the wrong page these days.  Besides, this has been our playful message board for a large group of us, no matter what's the photo is!!!!!! THINK

Navit:  I have the privilege of knowing that I will not rot in hell, no matter what your wishes for me are.!  

There sure is a lot of argument about who is right, Isarel or Palestine.  I think we have diplomats and people trying to resolve the situation and both sides are present here but we cannot fight the war here.  It does no go to shout blame and epithets at everyone here.  It just turns a nice place into a unpleasant one.

Jordan, you are so busy attacking everyone over everything and you can not even make one post that makes any sense whatsoever.  You say you are a Christian and maybe you are, but if so, you must be a new one.  You are using the Bible to make your point but you make it like a two sided sword. You can't have it both ways. Good example is your 4/30 rant. Perhaps  a really good Bible Study Group or a Bible study guide might help you.  I'm sure you are earnest in trying to spread the gospel, but it needs to be done in a right and just manner.  Whenever you want to do something like that, I have learned that it really helps to take some time to think about the right way to handle something and ask myself, "How do I think Jesus would handle this?  It has saved me some headaches!

Bull's comment about the children being saved by their death was right on.  Until they are old enough to hear and understand Christ's words and make the decision to accept or reject Christ, they will be in Heaven regardles of what religion the parents are trying to train into them.  So, in the midst of the tradgey, there is something good for the children that God loves and takes care of.

Sadly there are going to be wars and rumors of wars until the end.  We cannot control what the whole world does from America and I think out policy has been trying to help when and where it can.  If we don't like what our government is doing with our money, we ALL need to start flooding our elected officials with letters stating so and tell them what we would like to see.  If that doesn't help, vote for someone else next election!

I hope that this discussion is taking place so we could learn from one another, wouldn’t you all agree that the correct way. I am saddened that in our great nation, and yes the United States of America, still exists people full of hate and bigotry, only because I hold the name Hussein therefore I am no longer American and branded as the other. And where shall I go? This is my home; this is my country that I am so proud of! Just because my religion isn’t like yours, just because I have a different opinion, so let’s gang up on this outsider because he’s different? How can I blame the ignorant uneducated ones when those who have the tools, means and access to learn the truth. There are 1.5 billion Muslims on earth, one out of five humans on earth is a Muslim, yet you only want to learn about an extreme minority who claim to be Muslims and commit the awful acts that the majority of Muslims condemn. Such extremists exist on all sides, and it is a human trait no less.
Rose I will not disrespect your opinion and brand it as “garbage” like you did to mine. You talk as an expert about Muslims and Islam, so when you ask a Muslim his religion you will learn that it’s a very decisive answer, there’s proof, and it’s in the Holy Quran, it’s beyond faith. To you, if you find a contradiction or a lie in your religion, you decide its faith, and I have to look the other way and just believe, this is not the case for Muslims. We are asked to question and question everything even God, and the proof is so overwhelming. This is what non Muslims cannot comprehend. God sent prophets, but God doesn’t interfere with our daily affairs, he created us all as tribes and nations so we may know one another, some of us invest in goodness, some invest in evil, thus the Day of Judgment. Let’s say a person commits a murder, if God interferes, then the murderer will say O God I committed my crime because you wanted it to be this way, God is Just and will not try that person
Regarding the Palestinians and their land, there are those who feel that they are less than humans; they think they don’t deserve the opportunities that we have, some think that Palestinians are some savage people who love to kill and be killed, blood thirsty people. Do you not think that each Palestinian is a human being just like you and me, who deserves a normal healthy peaceful life; don’t they deserve to have education like we do, how about dignity? Two things will change the course of a nation, that’s when you strip it from JUSTICE. See what happens to us Americans when you strip Justice from us, see what happened to the British here when they were Unjust! The only way out is when we play just and not take sides, give the Palestinians their rights, enough died and this isn’t going anywhere, force will create force and more bloodshed, let us use reason righteousness, Those children didn’t have to die, they love like we do, laugh like we do, have hopes and dreams like we do, deserve security like we do!
Seattle, Washington...

Lonewolf-You have somehow confused my attack on the illogical as a crusade for Christ.  Listen lady, I have an enormous part of my life that you just cannot see on a photo blog...on the photoblog however, I am attacking morons, not spreading the gospel of Christ.  It just so happens that TRUE Christianity is the logical truth...I am arguing this from a secular point of view because I am talking with secular folk.

I do not agree with the salesmen's approach to Christianity either, I cannot make Christians and neither can you.  It is only my job to get their attention and I have done so.

And FYI-they make sense to a lot of people that are not the few middle-aged women who come here to flirt with other socially awkward folks...I have actually spoke often with some from this blog via email.  I have more fans then you think I am sorry to say...not bragn.

You could sit and talk to me in real life for an hour and I promise you, you wouldn't believe that I was Jordan from the Photo-blog.  

Socially awkward?  who me?  
He don't know me vewy well, do he?

Bull-you are also not a middle-aged women smart guy.  You are their target...haha

And FYI, I never called comet gay on that other picture.  That would be insulting to gays.

HUSSEIN - SO glad you're here. You bring a side to Truth (which, in the end, everyone thinks they own) invaluable to us. I have a friend, the son of missionaries, who lived in Lebanon and other areas of the Middle East his whole life. His view of Islam is very dark, as he watched the 80's happen there from his backyard.
This is palms open communique, here. I'm a pretty hard-line Baptist who believes that Jesus is Lord and God and will come back for His church, but also open-minded enough to know that the military installation of So. Cal. is a bubble both politically and religiously and that the combination of those two things will not work until the end of all things. So I seek answers, opinions, and yes, I will tell you about Christ as I've come to know him through my changed life. But what you can expect from me is love and truth.

AS far as I've been led to believe the Quran says to kill the infidel and that is Jews and those who wish to protect them. I am not sure where the "white devil" idea came from except that Elijah Muhammed of the Nation of Islam (think Malcolm X)preached what W.D. Fard espoused, but that group was a splinter group whose affiliation to Islam is as Mormons are to Evangelicals. Is the White Devil an original idea from the Quran?

AS far as differentiating between one creation and another I don't think God does. Jesus' words and actions
here on earth and through His Holy Spirit to the apostles to me says non-violence will accomplish more than violence. The closest example we have here in America is the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. who accomplished more for civil rights in his short time here than any violence did in the same era.

AS far as Israel's right to exist is concerned I think God is bigger than tax dollars. He uses what is in the heart of men to accomplish His will. Notice as our nation's fervor for Israel's protection has waned, so has the Lord's blessing. But what Christ foretold 2000 years ago is still true. Israel will continue to be a "rock of offence, a stone upon which [the world] will stumble."

What do you think of human rights?
What are they to you? I ask only because the issue may seem to be clear-cut but it is actually very convoluted when you ask people.
I believe that there are really very few. Most human "rights" to me are actually priviledges conditional upon our place, time, and government. The very act of legislating priviledges is what strips them away. Hope you respond.

Hey, Bull, can this middle aged woman flirt with you, you adorable hunka hunka?  After all, that is all I am here for, is to flirt with younger men.  LMBO.

Sorry folks about the double post there, the mistyped words, and dropped or added letters, such as 'we do birthday parties when THEY come' and instead of 'did not one stop' rather than 'did NO one stop to think"

Ya, Bull, me too?  *batting her eyelashes coyly*  

I guess someone feels that women come here only to flirt, since we supposedly have no real life.  In fact, I'm so socially awkward that I work with people for a living.  Apparently we are also incapable of having a serious conversation (that's why we only flirt...)  Yep, I'm so uneducated that I teach others how to learn and how to teach others.   Or is it only /middle-aged/ women that are lonely and stupid?  (Maybe that comes with child-birth and years of parenting! hahaha!)

*thank you, Blog Editors for not posting my original post*

(I'll try this again)

Jordon, you are laughable.

I must have ignored that comment at first, but must laugh out loud at the thought that he thinks that women have no other thought in their head except to come flirt with Bull.


BHWahhahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.





I'm rolling.  On the Floor.

Justjeord, I appreciate your open mindedness and wiliness to hear another human beings opinion.  As the saying goes, just because a man can get a woman pregnant that would not make him father. Same stands for those who claim to be Muslims, Christians, Jews or any other faith that do not adhere to the direct teachings of God, commit wrongful acts in the name of their religion, in that case is it fair to blame the religion? You see Islam is not a name tag you could wear and or claim. An example would be that drinking alcohol is forbidden in Islam, yet you see many people in the Muslim world who drink, so they’re not adhering to the religion.
Jesus is the prophet of God, for Muslims he’s revered and regarded as the spirit and the Word of God that came from the chaste virgin Marry. In the Holy Quran Jesus is mentioned over 60 times as for Prophet Mohammad was mentioned around 4. For Muslims, Jesus is the Messiah and he will be the savior on the Day of Judgment, a fact that most Christians do not know. Islam is an Abraham faith, to be a Muslim you must believe in all prophets, the Quran is not a book of stories, it’s like a book of law, history, talks about human rights, code of engagement if in war, how not to oppress and be the aggressor, equality amongst all mankind, women rights etc… Example, a code of engagement for Muslims is you can defend yourself if you’re attacked, but you may not be the one to start a war, you cannot hurt women, children or elders, you cannot destroy the homes of the enemies, their institutions or their places of worship, you may not change the landscape, hurt the earth, trees, animals and even insects. Those captured, they must be treated as humans Torture is illegal in Islam. So when someone who claims to be a Muslims attacks a center full of innocent humans, this person is committing a crime against God and Islam, God clearly mentions it in the Quran, “one who kill an innocent human is like killing humanity in its entirety”.
Jesus was sent with the pure message of God, unfortunately it was altered and it was no longer the word of God, this is why you see so many bibles and so many contradictions within each one. I say this because I grew up in a catholic school and this is something I examined myself. The Quran states that Jesus was never crucified and didn’t die; also that Jesus is not the Lord, nor the son of God. “I’ll be happy to explain the argument in this belief system”.
Regarding Elijah Muhammad of the Nation of Islam, he never followed the religion correctly, it showed from the beginnings of Malcolm X where he regarded as the white man being the Devil, all that changed when he went to Mecca and learned about true Islam where he sat and ate with white Muslim men with blue eyes and treated him like a brother, something he never experienced in America. Nation of Islam is the result of 400 years of Slavery no less!
I will say this again and mark my words. It’s always been known that Christian and Jews hated each other; you will find that over 50% of white Americans hold ill feelings for the Jews, remember Hitler got the blessings of the pope.
When it clearly appears to most that what is taken place in Israel and Palestine is a religious war between Muslims and Jews, is just another way to blind people from the truth. You see, the west knew very well the importance of oil, and it so happened that the Middle East is very rich with that resource, they knew that if Muslims and Arabs ever unite and protect their oil resource, this would mean dominance of the world. Israel is one of the most corrupt nations on earth, prostitution, drugs and violence, cartels and mafias fight for Dominance, you still think that this was part of God’s plan? Did you know that Israel is killing not only Muslim Palestinian, but also kills Christian Palestinians in the same brutality? Trust in one thing, the minute the oil dries in the Middle East; the US will stop backing Israel and will be left for its doomed fate. Religion and fear are the only way to control the people and get their support, I can tell you they succeeded.

Only we spoiled, wasteful Americans can afford the glamorous funerals we have in this country.  I'm for cremation and saving farm land.

Waiting-considering that you have flaunted around a "minor" in psychology to claim that I am actually angry and gay...well you are very laughable yourself.  

I think my point has more evidence than yours does.

I wonder what kind of defense mechanism you are using right now? humor perhaps?  

Jordan, my man.  Listen up, son...

Back off and I mean it. Don't ever write anything to her or about her again. You got that, Jack?

I'm certainly falttered that you think all these women come here for me.  I like harems.  C'mere all you sexy ladies...come to the bull...LMFAO!

Hussein, I am not an expert about Muslims... just stating my observations. Sorry, I find fault in your words.  So if the Quran is a compilation of "law, history, talks about human rights, code of engagement if in war, how not to oppress and be the aggressor, equality amongst all mankind, women rights" and you claiming that God is the only Author of this book… than wouldn’t it seem more appropriate to have it composed of “Gods rights, God’s laws, God’s talks and sermons, God’s ability to allow wrath, destruction, vengeance, and lets not forget God’s ability to allow forgiveness and repentance of all who come unto him, and who is He if you don’t even have a picture of him or know if he has a body of flesh and blood?  Will your God come down from Heaven and redeem mankind? Whose authority and what authority is given to your God to act in such away? Having the name God isn’t enough and doesn’t hold water…  

What will happen to our Country if we take away justice, whose justice the law of the lands or Gods?  This Country was founded by inspired men, who respected and loved God, hate to burst your bubble but most of whom were Christians, sorry but the Revolutionary War wasn’t fought between Christians and Muslims to gain our freedom…  This Country will remain the greatest Country until the day is forgets its God and becomes ripe iniquity, then judgments of God and his wrath will be sent to humble us into remembrance… That’s what will happen…

Nothing personal towards you, you sound like a very nice person but I have my beliefs and convictions and speaking out for said beliefs I don’t make a habit to shy away from…  

Hussein - sorry for the delay and it seems as if you've already got a lot to respond to.

So it works out that the crux of our debate is simply Jesus Christ. John chapter 1 states that Jesus is the Word of God, is God and was with God in the beginning and all things in the world were made through Him, that there is no creation He has not already made. Which brings us to the Bible. It is the infallible Word of God. Where does it contradict itself?

Since all have sinned who is innocent?
How does Islam erase sin and remove it from a Muslim?

The Quran is absolutely right. To kill an innocent person is like killing all of humanity. However, sin is inherent in all of us, even  babes as we all are Sons of Adam. I believe the Quran teaches this. (?)

So when we sin, it is a sin Christ died for on the cross and forgave before we were born. We have actually killed Christ on the cross by our very nature as fallen man!

But you don't believe that Christ died on the Cross. That is too bad. You don't believe in the inspired Word of God which is the Holy Bible. This also is too bad. Too bad for my argument of His death and resurrection from the dead. This means that if Allah has not paved a way whereby sin is paid for completely on His part (as Jesus did)
then every muslim dies with some sin in their heart uncovered by any gracious, merciful act. How is a muslim reconciled to Allah when they die?

I hope we can debate, explore and try to persuade one another about the nature of God. This does not mean that these are not sincere questions which I have and do not readily have time or access to answering for myself. God bless you.

Waiting-I don't even have anything else to say about you but since Bull made such a dumb post I will repeat this part...you are laughable

That was for you Bull...and my name is not Jack and I am not your son.

Don't be to flattered, I actually don't.  I think they are here for anything they can find...it was a joke.

United States are killing more people than they say on the news and they kill woman and children!

Jordan, So, if I am to understand this correctly, you believe that women post on blogs only to flirt, but men come to discourse.  Wow, that speaks volumes about your world view.  The flaw in that "logic" is that the women here also discourse and post comments to each other.  And the men joke around as much as the women.  So, the data do not support your conclusion.  Perhaps you just wanted to open a new discourse?

Two men discussing Jesus but don't know anything about Him...Rose, I would wash your hands clean of this one if I were you.

yeeeeaaa...Jerod, you don't know what you are talking about.  Hussein, your post was extremely hypocritical.  

Name one of those contradictions instead of claiming to know them.

Rose, why let your heart get in the middle of this?  You are talkng to 2 men who will one day face God's wrath and between a Muslim and an egomaniac, I highly doubt a lil lady such as yourself will get the respect that you deserve.  

Sad shot.

Not true Mickey...I don't think Southernlady is, Neosho clearly isn't, Someone whose name starts with an M clearly isn't, Rose isn't, Christa isn't, Kajun isn't.

But you are, so is Oregon, and lonewolf, and a few others.  I should have specified, but I did say "few middle-aged women"...in my defense.

Getting back to the photo itself ... when i buried my beautiful daughter and had to say that final good-bye, i too, looked for anything and anyone to blame, but in the end, was left alone, by myself. From that, i eventually chose life and love, not hate.  But i can see how hate seeps in when death strikes your soul...regardless of your faith or convictions.  I can't condone war as i can't live with the consequences.  Why can't we find peaceful solutions? Won't anyone listen?

Centrality of crucifixion, let’s examine it from both sides, our duty is simply to present the truth.
Description of God. Both religions are monotheistic, we both hold on to the belief of the ones of God. Bottom line is. The description of God from a general standard is on that is absolute. therefore there’s no description of him, in other words whenever we give description of God we must understand that it’s coming from a relative position. God is infinite, there’s no entity known to man that exists in the infinity by itself, things may approach infinity but there’s no such a thing as infinite. Because the minute it becomes infinite, you cannot describe it, therefore God is absolute, in that sense of the word that he’s infinite. The Quran says Say to them, God is unique, God is independent, he does not beget, nor is he begotten, and there’s no equation to him, you cannot compare him to anything that exists, there is no comparison to him. Relativity as we understand is bound in time matter and space, God is the creator of time, he’s the creator of matter and he’s the creator of space so it is false for anyone to put him in that which he created because by definition God is the creator and not the created, Simple as simple it can be. God is great, he is the owner, and he is the master. I am just paraphrasing here, everything praises God, and who is this God? He’s is the almighty, the one who owns the universe, and we cannot describe him. The only time we can describe God is when God describes himself to us, otherwise it’s conjectural talk, yet rationally speaking, there is a need for us to understand that there is a God, and God has to be there and without reading any scriptures we can come to a conclusion that from nothing comes nothing, and since we are something there had to be a maker, and that maker certainly cannot be bound in the relative world but rather it must be absolute. God in the Quran tells us in many ways that we should not associate anyone with God. The question of crucifixion comes to play. Our Christian brethren with all due respect to them say that when God created Adam, and told him to wonder in the garden of Eden, and told him do not approach that tree, you’ll find there are similarities in this discussion between Islam, Christianity and Judaism, after all there is continuity of prophets, according to Islam, God sent Adam as the first prophet and continued with this until the completion of the message which came with Prophet Mohammad, the final and seal of the prophets and God sent many scriptures to Islam, and God revealed many scriptures to man , the four main ones being the Torah which was given to Moses, the psalm which was given to David, the Gospel which was given to Jesus (peace be upon him) and the Quran which was given to Holy Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him and all prophets).
By description, you will find it in the Christian faith, before I get into the issue of Adam and the holy Garden, you see how God is described in the old testament, King James version, God says here O Israel, the lord our God is one Lord, and I thy shall love the Lord thy God with all my heart and all my soul, with all my mind, and these words which I command should be in my heart. We shall not go after other Gods. I shall do what is right and what is good in the site of God. So as you see here, there’s a parallel with Islam and Christianity regarding the ones of God and the absolute sense of the word
When God created Adam, you find that Adam was created in the image of God, As God mentions in the Quran, He who creates you in the womb of your mothers however he wills. God told Adam do not approach that tree, and according to Genesis that tree was the tree of good and evil, the tree of knowledge, and God did not want Adam to approach that tree, that is the condition. The Quran has a similar verse where God said, do not approach this tree so you may not burden yourself, what happens is that Adam approaches and eats from this tree, according to the Bible it was Eve was the one who seduced Adam to eat from the tree, so they fell from their position, so the critical piece of equation that there was a serpent there, meaning this devil is now telling them to go to this tree. People believe that Adam fell from this God, fell from this wonderful paradise that we’re all supposed to dwell in, but I see problems with this concept, because if this was such a garden as one would say, why is the serpent there? Since when does someone believe in going to paradise and having the devil or serpent whispering in your ears telling you go this way and not that way when God has commanded you to go in a different way? That doesn’t make sense! Certainly one can say this was just a garden and not one can earn damnation, the understanding is that Adam approached the tree and committed the original sin. Now the question is, can Sin be inherited? Because by all definitions, sin is that of which an act of an individual willfully moves away from the command of God. Can a child be born a sinner? The mercy of God almighty, that how does he lay the burden of with somebody else’s acts on somebody else. By the mere fact that pulling a tree one would say that is coercion because God has knowledge of everything and he knew that Adam will approach the tree because God’s knowledge is not limited, therefore one can easily conclude that this was upright coercive and this was vindictive, in that matter for somebody to inherit the sin of past doesn’t make sense in a logical conclusion. The very access of Christian dome revolves around vicarious atonement of Jesus for the sin of Adam that means atonement takes place many years later; it was never mentioned in the Old Testament. So if one would say the redemption takes place only with the crucifixion of Jesus we have a serious problem here, it would mean that all Prophets that preceded him were sinners, that goes for Noah, Abraham, Moses and others as sinners. They inherited the sin of Adam and we have a serious problem with that. The question is Adam is being placed, told not to approach, is God telling me while I live in this world I shouldn’t seek knowledge? Knowledge is bad for me, evil is bad for me? I should not know because if I take the reasoning behind it from this forbidden tree, I would conclude that God doesn’t want me to know, because if I know I am doomed, and only am I doomed but my whole generation is doomed. This really questions the justice of God; it questions the love of God. If you look at “John 3:16” it mentions love, for God so loved the world he gave his only son, the revised version says the begotten son for saving mankind. So for God so loved the world, can love supersede Justice? Or is it mercy that supersedes love? In the holy Quran you will find” In the name of God, the Beneficent the Merciful” you will find the term beneficent and mercy superior to the term of love, because love is a subsection of the mercy of God. An example a Judge has his son in the accused box and the Judge says I love my son, I really love him, Can I take the principals of Christianity as its really proposed, and I love my son, and since I love my son and God loves mankind, and for a crime committed by Adam I am going to punish my own son! Can the Judge do that and say, my son I love you very much therefore I will order your incarceration? Can we do that? That not only is called a breach of Justice, let alone absurd that is rational at certainty is what one would say, because how can somebody be held liable for the actions of someone else? So this issue of God loving the world and giving his only son has no credence in the justice of God nor for his absolute nature, for God does not come in the human form because we agreed that God is absolute, he’s infinite not finite! Now can we say that God is finite and infinite at the same time? That is the rational absurdity and God does not accept that! What is the definition, they say that God sacrificed, how can God sacrifice? Sacrifice by definition means giving up something, God can never give up anything, his wealth is infinite, he’s independent, there is no exhaustion of him giving his wealth to the universe, nothing tires him, that is the distinction between the Islamic faith and the Christian faith, in the Christian faith God created the earth in 6 days and rested the 7th day, the holy Quran says, tire nor slumber does not take him over nor does he rest on any day, absolute omnipotent. God resting? We brought him down to the human state and that is belittling the great statue of God, therefore the mercy of God is questioned, and the justice of God is questioned, and the love of God is questioned, and as I mentioned at the beginning that my religion is important just like for my Christian brothers, we derive our morality from these basic principles, how is it possible that in this principle that we bring forth that we can derive the fact that God killed his son for the crime of someone else? That’s a breach of justice, you find even Constantine the emperor who killed his son krispus, and when he killed him he was asked, he said if God killed his son and I am the closest to God what’s wrong if I kill my son? Now there’s the absorption of the action of God amongst mankind because if we do not bring moral principles on ourselves from what God teaches us then what do we need religion for? What do we need God for? It doesn’t make sense. So sacrifice is impossible for God, because God cannot sacrifice, some ask me why do I say that, God can do anything, then I pose a question, can God create another God? If anybody says yes then you have not understood the definition I mentioned before, God is the creator and not the created that means whatever God created cannot be God because God cannot be created. Some may ask, is that a limitation of God, absolutely not, that is in fact the omnipotence of God, his absoluteness because he doesn’t share a dominion with anyone. I will conclude that Islam is the religion of Mercy because when God asked Adam do not approach that tree, it meant you who decide when your trial begins, and when Adam approached that tree it was by design, in the Quran God says to the angels, I placed on earth a representative, so Adam was not a bad man, he was not the one who slipped and fell, when God speaks about this, it is only an advisory, meaning watch out, when you approach that tree your trial will begin, you will notice in the Christian faith Adam and his wife were not aware of their sexuality, when they approached the tree their sexuality became prevalent, one would say if Adam and Eve who lived in that part of the world and never approached that tree they would have never known their sexuality, guess what,  you and I would not have existed. Because there had to be some form of procreation for all of it to begin, there is nothing wrong with sexual desire, and it’s a mercy and a gift of God as long as it is practiced properly. So in conclusion you find that according to the Christian faith they say in the Easton’s dictionary, what is the definition of sin, it says, origin of sin is a mystery and must forever remain as such to us, it is claimed that for whatever reason God permitted sin to enter this world that is all no, this is simply not a rational argument.

It looks like they are either family members too stricken from grief to show emotion, or that they are undertakers. if my town was getting bombed every other day i think it would be hard for me to have kept clothes that showed my profession as well. As long as people are getting burried and not strewn across the roads like roadkill i think its just fine. when i die i think i'll let them bury me just like that.... people are getting stacked on top of each other in tombs nowadays. i'd rather be in a shallow grave so my body can be of more use to the environment. its just a shell, my soul wont be in the ground but my body will decompose and help the little part of Earth i call my home.

Many people take for granted the actual security that is implace to protect citizens. Most places being so compact and small have no way of securing themselves from terrorism or daily attacks and daily lost lives. The middle eastern region especially the particular civil war going on there, has been going on for ages. And to only now give any attention, sorrow, or acknolegment is blind.

Well Hussein, that certainly was a mouth full.

Hussein, your perspective of christian belief is obviously skewd.  First of all, Adam and Eve were told not to partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, not the tree of knowledge itself.  Therefore, knowledge is good and should be pursued.  Secondly, what God gave us by sending a part of himself to this earth is a means of reconciling us to Him.  Jesus gives us the means to bypass all the old rituals the Jews had to perform in order to remove their previous sins.  Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light.  Sorry, but for christians, any other belief and any teachings other than Christ's are false.  

Mr. Hussein, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.  May God have mercy on your soul!  

Jordan, why let my heart get in the middle of this… Good question, parts of me have that undying need to stand up for my beliefs and when reading complete and utter rubbish I have a hard time restraining… Ha ha, going with the crowd I have never been a fan of… and in this crowd, its easy…

I think you can relate...  

Thanks, though…  ;)

Stryder ... i appreciated your reply back to Hussein as i can actually understand what you are saying and your convictions. Thanks for being so concise.
Hussein, doubt i'm the only reader you lost with your rambling-style.
As for me, I tend to believe all religions are relevant and true to those practicing them; therefore I don't discount them as false.

bl - thanks.

Hussein - I didn't want to come across as condescending or for you to think that I respect you less for your convictions.  When the day of reckoning comes, we'll have to account for our actions.  At that time, may God have mercy on all our souls.

The winner of this year's Verbosity Ad Nauseam Award is..........
HUSSEIN!!!

Sorry sir or madam, I usually read every word of every post. I could not make it through that one. Simplify!

A view of Christianity, as told by "Hussein". Kind of an oxy-moron.

FOr future reference, you might want to shorten it up a bit!

HUSSEIN - Well, dude, it looks like you went all the way back to the beginning to knock out the underpinnings of the Christian faith. You missed the beginning, though.

The beginning is Jesus. The reason you cannot understand how Jesus' death (and resurrection) is just payment for man's sin is your lack of knowledge of what the Scriptures say is the nature of God.

John 1:1-5 says
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
John 1:14 says
"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

This is described as the trinity, and is held up in Genesis 1:26 - note the change from singular to plural -
"Then GOD said, 'Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness;... (emphasis added).' "

From these passages of Scripture we see that God is one God who chooses to express himself in three different persons - God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

The only way for a Holy God to provide payment for our screw-ups is to Sacrifice Himself, since sin is seperation from Him and "all have fallen short of the Glory of God." But Since God is the Creator of all things, including death, He is also able to defeat death. In Genesis God said "if you eat of the fruit of this tree you will surely die." In this way sin  entered the world through Adam. Since we are his children and share over 99% of His make-up, we die too. But the more important question to ask here is, Would I have eaten of that tree? If you have ever sinned in any capacity you would have to answer yes. The Scriptures also say that if you break one commandment you've broken them all. John 1:29 shows John the Babtist declaring,
"Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

This is the fulfillment of every sacrifice offered, that when Christ was lifted up on the cross He died on that cross the only sinless man to have ever lived. The only way He could have saved us is if He was Holy, which would mean He is God.

So, yes, God did create the BODY of Jesus of Nazareth through the miracle of the virgin birth, but God did not create the DEITY of Jesus Christ, as He was the incarnation of the Trinity, as I described from the Scriptures above. This was not a coercive act but a willing sacrifice. Just as Adam had placed before Him a choice, so Jesus had a choice placed before Him. He did not have to go and die for all of us. He could simply have started over since He is able to create. This was an act of Love, which Jesus says is the Greatest commandment. In Galatians 3:13 Paul declares that Christ became a curse, or sin for us, that the blessing of Abraham "might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might recieve the promise of the Spirit through faith."  
The crux here is the resurrection from the dead. If Jesus did not rise from the dead then my faith is useless, as the apostle Paul declares. I am interested to know why you think He didn't.

The other question I asked in my last post to you was never answered though.
` How does Islam provide eternal payment for sin, as if your sins never happened - "I have removed them as far as the east is from the west?"  

Did you know?


How Islamic inventors changed the world
From coffee to cheques and the three-course meal, the Muslim world has given us many innovations that we take for granted in daily life. As a new exhibition opens, Paul Vallely nominates 20 of the most influential- and identifies the men of genius behind them
Published: 11 March 2006
1 The story goes that an Arab named Khalid was tending his goats in the Kaffa region of southern Ethiopia, when he noticed his animals became livelier after eating a certain berry. He boiled the berries to make the first coffee. Certainly the first record of the drink is of beans exported from Ethiopia to Yemen where Sufis drank it to stay awake all night to pray on special occasions. By the late 15th century it had arrived in Mecca and Turkey from where it made its way to Venice in 1645. It was brought to England in 1650 by a Turk named Pasqua Rosee who opened the first coffee house in Lombard Street in the City of London. The Arabic qahwa became the Turkish kahve then the Italian caffé and then English coffee.

2 The ancient Greeks thought our eyes emitted rays, like a laser, which enabled us to see. The first person to realise that light enters the eye, rather than leaving it, was the 10th-century Muslim mathematician, astronomer and physicist Ibn al-Haitham. He invented the first pin-hole camera after noticing the way light came through a hole in window shutters. The smaller the hole, the better the picture, he worked out, and set up the first Camera Obscura (from the Arab word qamara for a dark or private room). He is also credited with being the first man to shift physics from a philosophical activity to an experimental one.

3 A form of chess was played in ancient India but the game was developed into the form we know it today in Persia. From there it spread westward to Europe - where it was introduced by the Moors in Spain in the 10th century - and eastward as far as Japan. The word rook comes from the Persian rukh, which means chariot.

4 A thousand years before the Wright brothers a Muslim poet, astronomer, musician and engineer named Abbas ibn Firnas made several attempts to construct a flying machine. In 852 he jumped from the minaret of the Grand Mosque in Cordoba using a loose cloak stiffened with wooden struts. He hoped to glide like a bird. He didn't. But the cloak slowed his fall, creating what is thought to be the first parachute, and leaving him with only minor injuries. In 875, aged 70, having perfected a machine of silk and eagles' feathers he tried again, jumping from a mountain. He flew to a significant height and stayed aloft for ten minutes but crashed on landing - concluding, correctly, that it was because he had not given his device a tail so it would stall on landing. Baghdad international airport and a crater on the Moon are named after him.

5 Washing and bathing are religious requirements for Muslims, which is perhaps why they perfected the recipe for soap which we still use today. The ancient Egyptians had soap of a kind, as did the Romans who used it more as a pomade. But it was the Arabs who combined vegetable oils with sodium hydroxide and aromatics such as thyme oil. One of the Crusaders' most striking characteristics, to Arab nostrils, was that they did not wash. Shampoo was introduced to England by a Muslim who opened Mahomed's Indian Vapour Baths on Brighton seafront in 1759 and was appointed Shampooing Surgeon to Kings George IV and William IV.

6 Distillation, the means of separating liquids through differences in their boiling points, was invented around the year 800 by Islam's foremost scientist, Jabir ibn Hayyan, who transformed alchemy into chemistry, inventing many of the basic processes and apparatus still in use today - liquefaction, crystallisation, distillation, purification, oxidisation, evaporation and filtration. As well as discovering sulphuric and nitric acid, he invented the alembic still, giving the world intense rosewater and other perfumes and alcoholic spirits (although drinking them is haram, or forbidden, in Islam). Ibn Hayyan emphasised systematic experimentation and was the founder of modern chemistry.

7 The crank-shaft is a device which translates rotary into linear motion and is central to much of the machinery in the modern world, not least the internal combustion engine. One of the most important mechanical inventions in the history of humankind, it was created by an ingenious Muslim engineer called al-Jazari to raise water for irrigation. His 1206 Book of Knowledge of Ingenious Mechanical Devices shows he also invented or refined the use of valves and pistons, devised some of the first mechanical clocks driven by water and weights, and was the father of robotics. Among his 50 other inventions was the combination lock.

8 Quilting is a method of sewing or tying two layers of cloth with a layer of insulating material in between. It is not clear whether it was invented in the Muslim world or whether it was imported there from India or China. But it certainly came to the West via the Crusaders. They saw it used by Saracen warriors, who wore straw-filled quilted canvas shirts instead of armour. As well as a form of protection, it proved an effective guard against the chafing of the Crusaders' metal armour and was an effective form of insulation - so much so that it became a cottage industry back home in colder climates such as Britain and Holland.

9 The pointed arch so characteristic of Europe's Gothic cathedrals was an invention borrowed from Islamic architecture. It was much stronger than the rounded arch used by the Romans and Normans, thus allowing the building of bigger, higher, more complex and grander buildings. Other borrowings from Muslim genius included ribbed vaulting, rose windows and dome-building techniques. Europe's castles were also adapted to copy the Islamic world's - with arrow slits, battlements, a barbican and parapets. Square towers and keeps gave way to more easily defended round ones. Henry V's castle architect was a Muslim.

10 Many modern surgical instruments are of exactly the same design as those devised in the 10th century by a Muslim surgeon called al-Zahrawi. His scalpels, bone saws, forceps, fine scissors for eye surgery and many of the 200 instruments he devised are recognisable to a modern surgeon. It was he who discovered that catgut used for internal stitches dissolves away naturally (a discovery he made when his monkey ate his lute strings) and that it can be also used to make medicine capsules. In the 13th century, another Muslim medic named Ibn Nafis described the circulation of the blood, 300 years before William Harvey discovered it. Muslims doctors also invented anaesthetics of opium and alcohol mixes and developed hollow needles to suck cataracts from eyes in a technique still used today.

11 The windmill was invented in 634 for a Persian caliph and was used to grind corn and draw up water for irrigation. In the vast deserts of Arabia, when the seasonal streams ran dry, the only source of power was the wind which blew steadily from one direction for months. Mills had six or 12 sails covered in fabric or palm leaves. It was 500 years before the first windmill was seen in Europe.

12 The technique of inoculation was not invented by Jenner and Pasteur but was devised in the Muslim world and brought to Europe from Turkey by the wife of the English ambassador to Istanbul in 1724. Children in Turkey were vaccinated with cowpox to fight the deadly smallpox at least 50 years before the West discovered it.

13 The fountain pen was invented for the Sultan of Egypt in 953 after he demanded a pen which would not stain his hands or clothes. It held ink in a reservoir and, as with modern pens, fed ink to the nib by a combination of gravity and capillary action.

14 The system of numbering in use all round the world is probably Indian in origin but the style of the numerals is Arabic and first appears in print in the work of the Muslim mathematicians al-Khwarizmi and al-Kindi around 825. Algebra was named after al-Khwarizmi's book, Al-Jabr wa-al-Muqabilah, much of whose contents are still in use. The work of Muslim maths scholars was imported into Europe 300 years later by the Italian mathematician Fibonacci. Algorithms and much of the theory of trigonometry came from the Muslim world. And Al-Kindi's discovery of frequency analysis rendered all the codes of the ancient world soluble and created the basis of modern cryptology.

15 Ali ibn Nafi, known by his nickname of Ziryab (Blackbird) came from Iraq to Cordoba in the 9th century and brought with him the concept of the three-course meal - soup, followed by fish or meat, then fruit and nuts. He also introduced crystal glasses (which had been invented after experiments with rock crystal by Abbas ibn Firnas - see No 4).

16 Carpets were regarded as part of Paradise by medieval Muslims, thanks to their advanced weaving techniques, new tinctures from Islamic chemistry and highly developed sense of pattern and arabesque which were the basis of Islam's non-representational art. In contrast, Europe's floors were distinctly earthly, not to say earthy, until Arabian and Persian carpets were introduced. In England, as Erasmus recorded, floors were "covered in rushes, occasionally renewed, but so imperfectly that the bottom layer is left undisturbed, sometimes for 20 years, harbouring expectoration, vomiting, the leakage of dogs and men, ale droppings, scraps of fish, and other abominations not fit to be mentioned". Carpets, unsurprisingly, caught on quickly.

17 The modern cheque comes from the Arabic saqq, a written vow to pay for goods when they were delivered, to avoid money having to be transported across dangerous terrain. In the 9th century, a Muslim businessman could cash a cheque in China drawn on his bank in Baghdad.

18 By the 9th century, many Muslim scholars took it for granted that the Earth was a sphere. The proof, said astronomer Ibn Hazm, "is that the Sun is always vertical to a particular spot on Earth". It was 500 years before that realisation dawned on Galileo. The calculations of Muslim astronomers were so accurate that in the 9th century they reckoned the Earth's circumference to be 40,253.4km - less than 200km out. The scholar al-Idrisi took a globe depicting the world to the court of King Roger of Sicily in 1139.

19 Though the Chinese invented saltpetre gunpowder, and used it in their fireworks, it was the Arabs who worked out that it could be purified using potassium nitrate for military use. Muslim incendiary devices terrified the Crusaders. By the 15th century they had invented both a rocket, which they called a "self-moving and combusting egg", and a torpedo - a self-propelled pear-shaped bomb with a spear at the front which impaled itself in enemy ships and then blew up.

20 Medieval Europe had kitchen and herb gardens, but it was the Arabs who developed the idea of the garden as a place of beauty and meditation. The first royal pleasure gardens in Europe were opened in 11th-century Muslim Spain. Flowers which originated in Muslim gardens include the carnation and the tulip.

I got carpal-tunnel scrolling thru that last one.  Sheesh.

Um, HUSSEIN? where u @?

Hussein, this guy represents himself, not the Christian God.

Again, my intention was to debate intelligent people so we could learn from one another. Many misunderstood Islam and its practices and my intention was to shed light on their ignorance. Disagreeing is good and healthy, after all I am not here to have anyone change their religion, I am bothered by those who make fun of “THE OTHER” and their opinion, no matter how odd and strange the others are they should still get the respect they deserve, every human deserves to be dignified. This mentality of discounting the other is really beyond me, and it’s even sad when religion is brought into it, many humans on this earth are suffering due to this way of thinking, it’s when one thinks they’re better than the other simply because they’re different race, religion or whatever, all of the sudden it justifies spelling their blood, and we could be so callus and insensitive to other human beings, this very mentality was the pretext to wipe out the Natives on this land, it’s the very mentality and believe that gave pretext to make it okay to own slaves, imagine, killing the others is like drinking water, this mentality is plentiful and available on all sides, just like there is Bin laden who thinks has the right to kill the infidel, and that infidel to him could also mean killing a Muslim like myself who simply doesn’t agree with his barbaric approach that happens to be totally against Islam, and there’s the Right wings Christians, not far from the thinking of Bin laden who also thinks less of their, this is why we see bloodshed everywhere, this is where the mentality of SHOCK AND AWE comes from, dropping bombs that make craters bigger than football fields is supported by so many, forgetting the human face of those being killed, they’re talked about they’re less human, who don’t deserve to live, dream, hope, let alone be happy… Manipulating religion is the most dangerous thing known to man, because two main recipes to make people listen to satanic plans make them scared and use religion, and it’s working, sadly people don’t question, they simply don’t ask! Some even act with confidence like God gave them his secrets, so they Judge others without even thinking that there’s only one Judge, GOD.
Why not debate my ideas, I have all the respect to everyone who reads these blogs, I am not here to score points. Convince me with your ideas, If Christianity is the way, would you think I am this blind I would not become Christian? In Islam we are allowed to question God, Prophet Mohammad and the Holy Quran, God’s intelligence is so superior he will leave no room for any doubt, shouldn’t this be the case? Those who say God is with the Israelis, I just wish they would open their mind and soul and become a little human and go away from the lies they’ve been fed and learn about the atrocities and crimes committed by Israel against Innocent civilians, many Christians if that would move you even a bit. People simply lost their humanity. God says in the Quran, “ And we dignified the sons of Adam” all the sons, he never said the whites, blacks, Asians, Muslims, Christians, he said all of them even those who didn’t believe in him, this is God’s mercy, this is God’s justice. So no, God does not interfere with helping the Jews, because the Jewish State is only 60 years old, so was God absent prior to that? I wish I could make this shorter, but it takes time to simply answer all these questions.
Forgive me justjerrod but it wasn’t my intention to knock the underpinning of the Christian Faith. I just hope you only use logic and reason. I don’t have to tell you that the Bible has been tampered with. Christianity was revived by Constantine, a pagan; this is why you see all the pagan practices in churches. Whether Catholicism or any Christian sect does any of the Cardinals or popes resemble the life of Jesus? How about their dress? How about the idea of the cross? Again was invented by Constantine, the Roman Emperor!
The Prophets sent by god were not sinners, it’s logically impossible, Those are God’s representatives, they hold his pure message, because if they were less than pure then less holy people will point that to them and will never follow them. Islam is quite clear that the message revealed to Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) no longer exists in written form. All that exists is an altered version, mediated to us through different human authors. So we cannot give any authority to these books referred to as Gospels.

   Prophets are necessary for conveying God’s instructions and guidance to
   Mankind. We have no way of knowing why we were created. What will happen?
   to us after death? Is there any life after death? Are we accountable for
   our actions? In other words, is  there  any reward or punishment for our
   deeds in this life? These and so many other questions about God, angels,
   paradise, hell, etc. can not  be  answered  without  revelation from the
   Creator and Knower of the unseen.  Those  answers  must be authentic and
   must be brought by individuals  whom  we trust and respect. That is why,
   messengers are the select of their  societies  in terms of moral conduct
   and intellectual ability.

Hence, the slanderous Biblical stories  about some of the great prophets
   are not accepted by  Muslims.  For  example,  Lot  is  reported  to have
   committed fornication while drunk, with his daughters; or David sent one
   his leaders to death to marry his wife.  Prophets to Muslims are greater
   than what these stories indicate. These stories can not be true from the
   Islamic point of view.

   The prophets are also miraculously  supported  by  God and instructed by
   Him to affirm the continuity of the message.
The Quranic account of  Jesus  emphatically  rejects  the concept of his
   'Divinity' and 'Divine  Sonship'  and  presents  him as one of the great
   prophets of God. The  Quran  makes  it  clear  that  the  birth of Jesus
   without a father does not  make  him  son  of  God  and mentions in this
   respect Adam who was created by God without a father and mother:

   "Truly the likeness of Jesus, in God's  sight, is as Adam's likeness; He
   created him of dust, then said He unto him, 'Be', and he was." (3:59)

However, the majority of the Jews  rejected  his  ministry. They plotted
   against his life and  in  their  opinion  crucified  him.  But the Quran
   refutes this opinion and says that they neither killed him nor crucified
   him, rather he was raised up  to  God.  There  is  a verse in the Quran,
   which implies that Jesus will come back  and all the Christians and Jews
   believe in him before  he  dies.  This  is  also  supported by authentic
   sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)

When speaking of the Day of  Judgment,  Jesus clearly gave evidence of a
   limitation on his knowledge  when  he  said,  "But  of that day and hour
   knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son,
   but the father." (Mark 13:32, and  Matt.  24:36)  But God knows all. His
   knowledge is without any limitations.  That Jesus, of his own admission,
   did not know when the day  of  judgment  would  be,  is clear proof that
   Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.



   The Church recognizes the Bible as the primary source of knowledge about
   God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes  it clear that Jesus is not the
   Supreme Being and the Supreme  Being  is not Jesus, upon what basis have
   you come to believe otherwise?

   My brother or sister, the belief that  the Supreme Being is a Trinity is
   false and completely inconsistent  with  the words of Jesus as presented
   in the Bible. God is one, not three. He is a perfect unity.

   If you are interested in the truth  about  God  and your relationship to
   Him, I invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.


Christianity has  digressed  from  the  concept  of  the Oneness of God,
   however, into a vague and mysterious doctrine that was formulated during
   the fourth century. This  doctrine,  which  continues  to be a source of
   controversy both within and without  the Christian religion, is known as
   the Doctrine of the Trinity.  Simply  put, the Christian doctrine of the
   Trinity states that God  is  the  union  of  three  divine persons - the
   Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - in one divine being.

   If that concept, put  in  basic  terms,  sounds  confusing,  the flowery
   language in the actual text of the  doctrine  lends even more mystery to
   the matter:

   "...we worship one God in Trinity, and  Trinity in Unity... for there is
   one Person of the Father, another of  the Son, another of the Holy Ghost
   is all one... they are not three  gods,  but  one God... the whole three
   persons are co-eternal and  co-equal...  he  therefore that will be save
   must thus think of the Trinity..." (excerpts from the Athanasian Creed)

   Let's put this together in a different  form: one person, God the Father
   + one person, God the Son + one person, God the Holy Ghost = one person,
   God the What? Is this English or is this gibberish?

   It is said that Athanasius,  the  bishop  who  formulated this doctrine,
   confessed that the more he wrote on  the matter, the less capable he was
   of clearly expressing his thoughts regarding it.

   How did such a confusing doctrine get its start?

I am tired of writing and I know some will be mad for writing too much...

HUSSEIN - OOOOOOOHHHHH! too long of a post! Anger! Pain!




Just joking! It's a blog, and we're waaaay back here, so if they're interested they'll read it. Otherwise, who cares? I'm enjoying sharing the Gospel and reading about Islam as untold by Americans. Cool facts list!

"Come, let us reason together..."

Hussein, in reference to your comment towards Matt 24:36…

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.  –Matt 11:27

Is it quite possible that Jesus was doing the WILL of the Father and that will was and still is being revealed unto him… Hmmmm? Think about it, what did Christ do after he was baptized?  He fasted and prayed for forty days and forty nights, further seeking guidance and instructions from the Father, so claiming that even the Son of God doesn’t know the exact day of judgment is a weak argument  … sorry but you gonna half to do better than that…

You get all caught up on definitions and out dated traditions… kinda like the Pharisees and Sadducees, that you have completely missed the mark… Funny thing is that you wont agree with me, deny this all you want but that is exactly what you are doing...

HUSSEIN - Is there anyway get our emails traded? I would love to discuss all this with you an a more open forum as this one seems to be closing in around us... yikes!

But it's totally cool if you want to continue here.

Rose… I totally feel your sincerity when it comes to loving God. This is the way it’s meant to be. We just need to be really careful here not to get caught in believing FAITH alone. You may not put a person on a trial without evidence, and evidence must be conclusive. So if you were a prosecutor, could you say to the Judge, O your honor, could it be, or the way you put it, is it quite possible be that Mr. defendant committed an awful act? Logic tells me the Judge will be very upset with you for wasting the courts time and case will be dismissed. Then you say that I get caught up on definitions and outdated traditions. All I am doing here is trying to give you a taste of the contradictions in the bible, Contradictions I found and noticed while in Elementary level while going to a Catholic school.
In the Old Testament you read the following: "And when Jesus son of Mary said, ‘Children of Israel, I am indeed the Messenger to you, confirming the Torah that is before me, and giving
Good tidings of a Messenger who shall come after me, whose name shall be The PRAISED ONE." (61:6) (The capitalized portion is the translation of Ahmad which is Prophet Muhammed's name.)

ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE GOD IS AN INVISIBLE SPIRIT....  BUT JESUS WAS
FLESH AND BLOOD

While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said: "No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18) "Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." (John 5:37) He also said in John 4:24: "God is a spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God at any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.

Then you say: Funny thing is that you won’t agree with me, deny this all you want but that is exactly what you are doing... I definitely appreciate your respectful tone and not calling my thinking idiotic, incoherent etc… How would you respect me if I lied to you? Would you be happy if I agreed with you that the white egg is black? That also goes to justjerod. I will agree with you when you give me something I can rely on, solid evidence. Let me ask you this. Did you know that Islam is the largest growing religion on earth? Majority are women. Do you think those people are dumb and stupid? To the contrary, they decided to ask questions, and they like to be shushed and told we just don’t ask such questions!!! I don’t know what your fear is, we all know that there’s God, and we all believe in all the messengers, your version says they were sinners and that didn’t make sense as proven in earlier debate. It’s not about scoring points but stating facts. God Bless! mustbtold@gmail.com

Hussein, good to know that you are getting a feel for my love towards God, this actually is one of my favorite subjects of discourse.  Faith without works is dead.

Putting a person on trial without evidence is a problem, kinda like the Salem Witch Trials… however, that is an interesting thought if the Judge took your advice and simply got upset and dismissed the case…  You could phrase it like this… “Your Honor, despite the many attempts of these foolish village people you can clearly see that these women aren’t witches or night hags, that this was all some big misunderstanding… Now that would almost seem plausible but you see, me being a bad prosecutor and all I just can’t keep my objections to myself and most of my objections were merely due to your own words (There’s your circumstantial evidence.) Now to say that it is inconclusive would prove case in point that your words are simply words not facts and that you have proven nothing and we can all just go home now… how boring.

Jesus did have a body of flesh and blood (He had too, how else would the Atonement take place?)  See this is where you and I will disagree because when Jesus died and in 3 days time he got resurrected (Now having a GLORIFIED and RESURRECTED body-God) Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly (Acts 10:40) thus proving unto his faithful disciples and other witnesses that He is indeed God and that the bands of death have been broken and He has paved a way for us. But you have already stated that you don’t believe that Jesus has died, right? So obviously, some clarifications need to be further clarified.

Then you ask: “How would you respect me if I lied to you?” and then go and tell me that the white egg is black… hilarious… Clearly, I didn’t call your words idiotic (Ha!) that time.  Well it would make me happy if you saw light, just being honest.  And yes I did know that about Islam, so what’s the mortality expectancy rate of joining? I’m not gonna answer the rest of your questions cause you really don’t want to know what I think… I don’t fear, fear is the absence of faith.  My version, I take it that you are referring to the Bible?  I read the King James Version and we are all sinners, not sure where you are going with that last remark, now would be the appropriate time to say that yes the white egg is black…

Well that was an extremely fruitful conversation Jerod, he destroyed you.

Hussein, good to know that you are getting a feel for my love towards God, this actually is one of my favorite subjects of discourse. Faith without works is dead.

Putting a person on trial without evidence is a problem, kinda like the Salem Witch Trials... however, that is an interesting thought if the Judge took your advice and simply got upset and dismissed the case... you could phrase it like this "You honor, despite the many attempts of these foolish village people you can clearly see that these women aren't witches or night hags, that this was all some bid misunderstanding..."  Now that would almost seem plausible but you see me being a bad prosecutor and all I just can't keep my objections to myself and most of my objections were merely due to your own words (There's your circumstantial evidence.) Now to say that it is inconclusive would proce case in point that your words are simply words not facts and that you have proven nothing and we can all just go home now... How boring.

Jesus did have a body of flesh and blood (He had too, how else would the Atonement take place?) See this is where you and I will disagree because when Jesus died and in 3 days time he got resurrected (Now having a GLORIFIED and RESURRECTED body-God) Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly (Acts 10:40) thus proving unto his faithful disciples and other witnesses that He is indeed God and that the bands of death have been broken and He has paved a way for us. But you have already stated that you don't believe that Jesus has died, right?  So obviously, some clarifications need to be further clarified.

Then you ask: "How woould you respect me if I lied to you?" and then go and tell me that the white egg is black... hilarious... Clearly, I didn't call your words idiotic (HA) that time. Well it would make me happy if you saw the light, just being honest. And yes I did know that about Islam.  I'm not gonna answer the rest of your questions, for me sounding like a jerk will be the only out come, and I am TRYING to keep up my respectful image that I have going for myself....
I don't fear, fear is the absence of faith. My version, I take it that you are referring to the Bible? I read the King James Version and we are all sinners, not sure where you are going with that last remark, now would be the appropriate time to say that yes the white egg is black...  

Hussein, sorry for the double post and my tactless comments that are in the first... my second post was my attempt to edit and harness my opinions (So to speak) that surround this topic, I am a very passionate person which is a good thing and a bad thing. Unfortunately I have put my foot in my mouth and do recognize that I owe you an apology.

HUSSEIN - my apologies for the delay. Been laid up with dental surgeries, the flu, pain killers, finals, my child's karate testing and custody, custody mediation, etc. Things in life that take precedence over my computer which some very antipathetic bloggers cannot grasp. They therefore must take any opportunity to take whatever cheap shots they can perceiving they have nothing to bring to the conversation and must attack their nominal "brother". This belies both a disregard for the reality of one's spiritual death and apathy towards study. I believe Jesus did say you would know us by the way we love one another. For this lack of evidence of the Holy Spirit in our lives I must humbly apologize. But Jesus is the Jesus of the Gospel, not the Isa with the Injil.

Down to business! This will be long but, MY FRIEND, it is worth the read to find Truth.
As to your Biblical contradictions:

5/23 to ROSE  - John 1:18 - You must be complete and finish the verse. It says

"Noone hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, WHO IS THE BOSOM of the Father, He has declared Him."
    If he equates himself with being the Heart of God, this is a clear claim to deity.

5/23 to ROSE - John 5:37 - Another verse out of context as you cut it in half and removed it from the appropriate intellectual setting. As reads in it's entirety:
"And the Father Himself who sent me, has testified of me. You have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen His form. But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe."

   Jesus is obviously describing the Pharisee's spiritual blindness toward Jesus' Messianic role when he says they have neither seen nor heard God the Father.
   If you regard Moses as a Holy Prophet, search the historically and archaeologically accurate Torah for the veracity of Jesus' claims as He says in John 5:46

"For if you believed Moses you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me."

5/23 ROSE John 4:24 - Jesus did not say that God is A spirit - He said "God IS Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth."

Simple logic - If God is Spirit, then the Spirit is more substantial then flesh. Therefore it is no great trick for God to birth His Word by the Holy Spirit. Again - read John 1.

Let's break for a look at the Quran.

This argument is especially vague as you believe the Jesus I believe in is false whereas the Isa you believe in is the "real deal". Problem is that there is no historical account for the Quran's "'Isa" apart from the Bible. Apparently, the entire Quran is missing a single shred of archaeological support www.debate.org.uk/topics/isamasih/apr99/archeo

This is from a little online study and was helpful to me as I hope it will be to you and to others who are following:

** ‘Isa, the Muslim Jesus
by Dr Mark Durie **

"The word Christian is not a valid word, for there is no religion of Christianity according to Islam". — www.answering-christianity.com

...

Critical Comments on the Muslim ‘Isa (Jesus)
- ‘Isa not an historical figure -

The Qur’an’s ‘Isa is not an historical figure. His identity and role as a prophet of Islam is based solely on supposed revelations to Muhammad over half a millennium after the Jesus of history lived and died.

- Jesus’ name was never ‘Isa -

Jesus’ mother tongue was Aramaic. In his own lifetime he was called Yeshua in Aramaic, and Jesu in Greek. This is like calling the same person John when speaking English and Jean when speaking French: Jesu, pronounced "Yesoo", is the Greek form of Aramaic Yeshua. (The final -s in Jesu-s is a Greek grammatical ending.) Yeshua is itself a form of Hebrew Yehoshua’, which means ‘the Lord is salvation’. However Yehoshua’ is normally given in English as Joshua. So Joshua and Jesus are variants of the same name.

It is interesting that Jesus' name Yehoshua’ contains within it the proper Hebrew name for God, the first syllable Yeh- being short for YHWH ‘the LORD’.

Yeshua of Nazareth was never called ‘Isa, the name the Qur’an gives to him. Arab-speaking Christians refer to Jesus as Yasou’ (from Yeshua) not ‘Isa.

- Jesus did not receive a ‘book’ -

According to the Qur’an, the ‘book’ revealed to ‘Isa was the Injil. The word Injil is a corrupted form of the Greek euanggelion ‘good news’ or gospel. What was this euanggelion? This was just how Jesus referred to his message: as good news. The expression euanggelion did not refer to a fixed revealed text, and there is absolutely no evidence that Jesus received a ‘book’ of revelation from God.

- The ‘gospels’ of the Bible are biographies -

The term "euanggelion" later came to be used as a title for the four biographies of Jesus written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the ‘gospels’. This was a secondary development of meaning. Apparently this is where Muhammad got his mistaken idea of the Injil being a ‘book’.

- Most so-called prophets of Islam received no book -

Virtually all of the so-called ‘prophets’ of Islam, whose names are taken from the Hebrew scriptures, received no ‘book’ or law code. For example, the Psalms are not a book revealing Islam, as the Qur’an claims, but a collection of songs of worship, only SOME(emph. added) of which are David’s. There is not a shred of evidence in the Biblical history of David that he received a book of laws for the Israelites. They already had the Torah of Moses to follow. So David was not a prophet in the Qur’an’s sense of this word. Likewise most of the prophets claimed by Islam were neither lawgivers nor rulers.

- Biblical prophecy and Islamic prophecy are not the same thing -

The Biblical understanding of prophecy is quite different from Muhammad’s. A Biblical prophecy is not regarded as a passage from a heavenly eternally pre-existent text like the Qur’an, but a message from God for a specific time and place. A biblical prophet is someone to whom God reveals hidden things, and who then acts as God’s verbal agent. When a Samaritan woman called Jesus a prophet (John 4:19) it was because he had spoken about things in her life that he could only have known supernaturally. Christianity teaches that Jesus was a prophet, but he brought no ‘book’: he himself was the living ‘Word of God’, a title used of ‘Isa in the Qur’an.

By no means all prophecies referred to in the Bible became part of the Biblical text. The Bible consists of a wide variety of materials originally written for many different purposes, including letters, songs, love poetry, historical narratives, legal texts, proverbial wisdom as well as prophetic passages. These are regarded as inspired by God, but not dictated from a timeless heavenly book.

- As prophetic history, the Qur’an contains many errors and anachronisms -

The claim that Jesus was not executed by crucifixion is without any historical support. One of the things that all the early sources agree on is Jesus’ crucifixion.

Mariam the mother of ‘Isa is called a sister of Aaron, and also the daughter of Aaron’s father ‘Imran (Hebr. Amram). Clearly Muhammad has confused Mary (Hebr. Miriam) with Miriam of the Exodus. The two lived more than a thousand years apart!
[Al 'Imran 3:34-36 parallels Exodus 6:20 Amram; Maryam 19:19-28; Al An'am 6:12]

In the Bible Haman is the minister of Ahasuerus in Media and Persia (The Book of Esther 3:1-2). Yet the Qur’an places him over a thousand years earlier, as a minister of Pharoah in Egypt.

The claim that Christians believe in three Gods — Father, son Jesus and mother Mary — is mistaken. The Qur’an is also mistaken to claim that Jews say Ezra was a son of God. (At-Taubah 9:30) The charge of polytheism against Christianity and Judaism is ill-informed and false. (Deuteronomy 6:4, James 2:19a)

The story of the ‘two horned one’ (Al-Kahf 18:82 cf also Daniel 8:3, 20-21) is derived from the Romance of Alexander. Certainly Alexander the Great was no Muslim.

The problem with the name ‘Isa has already been discussed. Other Biblical names are also misunderstood in the Qur’an, and their meanings lost. For example Elisha, which means ‘God is salvation’, is given in the Qur’an as al-Yash’a, turning El ‘God’ into al- ‘the’. (Islamic tradition did the same to Alexander the Great, calling him al-Iskandar ‘the Iskander’). Abraham ‘Father of many’ (cf Genesis 17:5) might have been better represented as something like Aburahim ‘father of mercy’ instead of Ibrahim, which has no meaning in Arabic at all.

The Qur’an has a Samaritan making the golden calf, which was worshipped by the Israelites in the wilderness (Ta Ha 20:85) during the Exodus. In fact it was Aaron (Exodus 34:1-6). The Samaritans did not exist until several centuries later. They were descendants of the northern Israelites centuries after the Exodus.

Many Qur’anic stories can be traced to Jewish and Christian folktales and other apocryphal literature. For example a story of Abraham destroying idols (As-Saffat 37) is found in a Jewish folktale, the Midrash Rabbah. The Qur’anic story of Zachariah, father of John the Baptist, is based upon a second-century Christian fable. The story of Jesus being born under a palm tree is also based on a late fable, as is the story of Jesus making clay birds come alive. Everything the Qur’an says about the life of Jesus which is not found in the Bible can be traced to fables composed more than a hundred years after Jesus’ death.

Jesus’ titles of Messiah and Word of God, which the Qur’an uses, find no explanation in the Qur’an. Yet in the Bible, from which they are taken, these titles are well integrated in a whole theological system.

The Qur’an mentions the Holy Spirit in connection with Jesus, using phrases which come from the gospels. Ibn Ishaq (Life of Muhammad) reports Muhammad as saying that this ‘Spirit’ was the angel Gabriel (cf also An-Nahl 16:102, Al-Baqarah 2:97). However the Biblical phrase ‘Spirit of God’ (Ruach Elohim) or ‘Holy Spirit’ can only be understood in light of the Hebrew scriptures. It certainly does not refer to an angel.

Jesus’ alleged foretelling of Muhammad’s coming (As-Saff 61:6) appears to be based on a garbled reading of John 14:26, a passage which in fact refers to the Spirit.

The Hebrew scriptures were Jesus’ Bible. He affirmed their authority and reliability and preached from them. From these same scriptures he knew God as Adonai Elohim, the Lord God of Israel. He did not call God Allah, which appears to have been the name or title of a pagan Arabian deity worshipped in Mecca before Muhammad. Muhammad's pagan father, who died before Muhammad was born, already bore the name ‘Abd Allah ‘slave of Allah’, and his uncle was called Obeid Allah.

We read that An-Najm 53:19-23 seeks to refute the pagan Arab belief that Allah had daughters named al-Uzza, al-Ilat and Manat. (See also An-Nahl 16:57 and Al-An’am 6:100).

The Biblical narratives are rich with historical details, many confirmed by archaeology. They cover more than a thousand years, and reveal a long process of technological and cultural development. In contrast the Qur’an’s sacred history is devoid of archaeological support. Its fragmentary and disjointed stories offer no authentic reflection of historical cultures. No place name from ancient Israel is mentioned, not even Jerusalem. Many of the supposed historical events reported in the Qur’an have no independent verification. For example we are told that Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaaba in Mecca (Al-Baqarah 2:127), but this is totally without support. The Biblical account, more than a thousand years older, does not place Abraham anywhere near Arabia.

The Qur’an is not a credible source for Biblical history

The Qur’an, written in the 7th century AD, cannot be regarded as having any authority whatsoever to inform us about Jesus of Nazareth. It offers no evidence for its claims about biblical history. Its numerous historical errors reflect a garbled understanding of the Bible.

Islam appropriates the history of Judaism and Christianity to itself

When Muhammad linked the name of Allah to the religious histories of Judaism and Christianity, this was a way to claim them for Islam. In the light of later events, the claim that Islam was the original religion, and that all preceding prophets were Muslims, can be regarded as an attempt to appropriate the histories of other religions for Islam. The effect is to rob Christianity and Judaism of their own histories.

Consider that many Biblical sites, such as the tombs of the Hebrew Patriarchs and the Temple Mount, are claimed by Islam as Muslim sites, not Jewish or Christian ones. After all, the Qur’an tells us that Abraham ‘was a Muslim’. Under Islamic rule all Jews and Christians were banned from such sites.

The place of the Jewish scriptures in Christianity is completely different from the place of the Bible in Islam

There is a fundamental difference between Christian attitudes to the Jewish scriptures and Islamic attitudes to the Bible. Christians accept the Hebrew scriptures. They were the scriptures of Jesus and the apostles. They were the scriptures of the early church. The whole of Christian belief and practice rests upon them. Core Christian concepts such as ‘Messiah’ (Greek ‘Christos’), ‘Spirit of God’, ‘Kingdom of God’ and ‘salvation’ are deeply rooted in the Hebrew Biblical traditions.

We note also that Christian seminaries devote considerable effort to studying the Hebrew scriptures. This is an integral part of training for Christian ministry. The Hebrew scriptures are read (in translation) every Sunday in many churches all around the world.

In contrast Islam’s treatment of the Bible is one of complete disregard. Although it purports to ‘verify’ all earlier prophetic revelation, the Qur’an is oblivious to the real contents of the Bible. The claim that Christians and Jews deliberately corrupted their scriptures is made without evidence, and this only serves to cover up the Qur’an’s historical inadequacies. Muslim scholars rarely have an informed understanding of the Bible or of biblical theology and so remain ignorant of these realities.

Some contemporary Muslim voices on Jesus

Yasser Arafat, addressing a press conference at the United Nations in 1983 called Jesus "the first Palestinian fedayeen who carried his sword" (i.e. he was a freedom fighter for Islam).

Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi, employee of the Palestinian Authority, broadcast live in April 2002 on Palestinian Authority television: "The Jews await the false Jewish messiah, while we await, with Allah's help... Jesus, peace be upon him. Jesus's pure hands will murder the false Jewish messiah. Where? In the city of Lod, in Palestine."

Author Shamim A. Siddiqi of Flushing, New York put the classical position of Islam towards Christianity clearly in a recent letter to Daniel Pipes, New York Post columnist:

"Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad were all prophets of Islam. Islam is the common heritage of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim community of America, and establishing the Kingdom of God is the joint responsibility of all three Abrahamic faiths. Islam was the din (faith, way of life) of both Jews and Christians, who later lost it through human innovations. Now the Muslims want to remind their Jewish and Christian brothers and sisters of their original din [religion]. These are the facts of history."

This historical negationism — appearing to affirm Christianity and Judaism whilst in fact rejecting and supplanting them — is a lynchpin of Muslim apologetics. What is being affirmed is in fact neither Christianity nor Judaism, but Jesus as a prophet of Islam, Moses as a Muslim etc. This is intended to lead to ‘reversion’ of Christians and Jews to Islam, which is what Siddiqi refers to when he speaks of ‘the joint responsibility’ of Jews and Christians to establish ‘the Kingdom of God’. By this he means that American Christians and Jews should work to establish shari’ah law and the rule of Islam in the United States.

Conclusion

‘Isa (Jesus) of the Qur’an is a product of fable, imagination and ignorance. When Muslims venerate this ‘Isa, they have someone different in mind from the Yeshua or Jesus of the Bible and of history. The ‘Isa of the Qur’an is based on no recognized form of historical evidence, but on fables current in seventh century Arabia.

For most faithful Muslims ‘Isa is the only Jesus they know. But if one accepts this Muslim ‘Jesus’, then one also accepts the Qur’an: one accepts Islam. Belief in this ‘Isa is won at the cost of the libel that Jews and Christians have corrupted their scriptures, a charge that is without historical support. Belief in this ‘Isa implies that much of Christian and Jewish history is in fact Islamic history.

The Jesus of the gospels is the base upon which Christianity developed. By Islamicizing him, and making of him a Muslim prophet who preached the Qur’an, Islam destroys Christianity and takes over all its history. It does the same to Judaism.

In the end times as described by Muhammad, ‘Isa becomes a warrior who will return with his sword and lance. He will destroy the Christian religion and make Islam the only religion in all the world. Finally at the last judgement he will condemn Christians to hell for believing in the crucifixion and the incarnation.

This final act of the Muslim ‘Isa reflects Islam’s apologetic strategy in relation to Christianity, which is to deny the Yeshua of history, and replace him with a facsimile of Muhammad, so that nothing remains but Islam.

"The Muslim supersessionist current claims that the whole biblical history of Israel and Christianity is Islamic history, that all the Prophets, Kings of Israel and Judea, and Jesus were Muslims. That the People of the Book should dare to challenge this statement is intolerable arrogance for an Islamic theologian. Jews and Christians are thus deprived of their Holy Scriptures and of their salvific value."

— Bat Ye’or in Islam and Dhimmitude: where civilizations collide, p.370.



APPENDIX: The historical evidence for Jesus (Yeshua)
of Nazareth and his death by crucifixion

Non-Christian sources for Jesus

• Tacitus (AD 55-120), a renowned historical of ancient Rome, wrote in the latter half of the first century that ‘Christus ... was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also.’ (Annals 15: 44).

• Suetonius writing around AD 120 tells of disturbances of the Jews at the ‘instigation of Chrestus’, during the time of the emperor Claudius. This could refer to Jesus, and appears to relate to the events of Acts 18:2, which took place in AD 49.

• Thallus, a secular historian writing perhaps around AD 52 refers to the death of Jesus in a discussion of the darkness over the land after his death. The original is lost, but Thallus’ arguments — explaining what happened as a solar eclipse — are referred to by Julius Africanus in the early 3rd century.

• Mara Bar-Serapion, a Syrian writing after the destruction of the Temple in AD 70, mentions the earlier execution of Jesus, whom he calls a ‘King’.

• The Babylonian Talmud refers to the crucifixion (calling it a hanging) of Jesus the Nazarene on the eve of the Passover. In the Talmud Jesus is also called the illegitimate son of Mary.

• The Jewish historian Josephus describes Jesus’ crucifixion under Pilate in his Antiquities, written about AD 93/94. Josephus also refers to James the brother of Jesus and his execution during the time of Ananus (or Annas) the high priest.

- Paul’s Epistles -

• Paul’s epistles were written in the interval 20-30 years after Jesus’ death. They are valuable historical documents, not least because they contain credal confessions which undoubtedly date to the first few decades of the Christian community.

Paul became a believer in Jesus within a few years of Jesus’ crucifixion. He writes in his first letter to the Corinthians ‘For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he was seen by Cephas (Peter), then by the twelve.’ This makes clear that belief in the death of Jesus was there from the beginning of Christianity.

- The four gospels -

• The four gospels were written down in the period 20-60 years after Jesus’ death, within living memory of the events they describe.

The events which the gospels describe for the most part took place in the full light of public scrutiny. Jesus’ teaching was followed by large crowds. There were very many witnesses to the events of his life. His death was a public execution.

- Manuscript evidence for the Bible and its transmission -

The manuscript evidence for the Greek scriptures is overwhelming, far greater than for all other ancient texts. Over 20,000 manuscripts attest to them. Whilst there are copying errors, as might be expected from the hand of copyists, these are almost all comparatively minor and the basic integrity of the copying process is richly supported.

Futhermore, when Western Christians studies the Hebrew scriptures during the Renaissance, they found them to agree remarkably closely with their Greek and Latin translations which had been copied again and again over a thousand years. There were copying errors, and some other minor changes, but no significant fabrications of the stupendous scale which would be required to concoct the story of Jesus’ death.

Likewise when the Dead Sea Scrolls [seen 'em! it's worth the trip!] were discovered they included Hebrew Biblical scrolls dating from before the time of Jesus. These too agreed very closely with the oldest Hebrew Masoretic manuscripts of more than a thousand years later. Again, no fabrications, but evidence of remarkably faithful copying.

**Conclusion: Jesus of Nazareth is a figure of history**

Clearly there are events recorded in connection with Jesus’ life that many non-Christians will not accept, such as the miracles, the virgin birth, and the resurrection. However what is beyond dispute is that Yeshua (‘Jesus’) of Nazareth was a figure of history, who lived, attracted a following in his life time amongst his fellow Jews and was executed by crucifixion by the Roman authorities, after which his followers spread rapidly. Both secular and Christian sources of the period agree on this.

The primary sources for the history of Jesus’ public life are the gospels. These were written down relatively soon after his death — within living memory — and we have every indication that these sources were accepted as reliable in the early Christian community, during a period when first and second hand witnesses to Jesus’ life were still available.

[In conclusion] any statements about ‘Isa (Jesus) in the Qur’an, made six centuries after Jesus’ death, must be judged against the historical evidence from these first century sources, and not vice versa.

Some useful discussions of these issues are found at:
http://www.debate.org.uk/topics/theo/islam_christ.html
http://www.debate.org.uk/topics/theo/qur-jes.htm
http://www.answering-islam.org/Intro/replacing.html

Further reading: The Jesus I never knew, by Philip Yancey.
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Another thing I don't see in here is that if Jesus is regarded as a Holy Prophet but claims to be God as He does in

Matthew 11:27
Matthew 12:28 parallel Luke 11:20
Matthew 23:34
Mark 9:42
Mark 14:27
MARK 14:61-4
Luke 24:25,46 etc.

then Jesus is either the most deceptive liar this planet has ever seen or He is insane. Both disqualify him from the ranks of Holiness. Yet the Quran says he is sinless and a Holy Prophet.

   Also just as contradictory is that Jesus prophesied (7 centuries before Muhammed) that His words would never pass away. Now the Quran indicates that there is no record of His words. This again makes Jesus out to be a liar while claiming that he is one your Holy Prophets. This doesn't make sense.

The Trinity does not have to make sense to you. We are human and cannot understand the depth of spiritual things. God made Math so it only has to work for Him

Another biblical "contradiction" you've brought up:

   Mark 13:32 - Yes. Jesus was not omniscient as far as the pinpoint accuracy of the will of God. This is also made clear in the Garden of Gethsemane. However, once again you have failed to quote damaging evidence to your claims by chopping the context in half.
Matt. 24:36-37:

"But of that day and hour noone knows, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (37)But as the days of Noah were, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. (38) For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,(39) and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."
   Verse 36 attests to the 100% humanity of Jesus while vs.37-39 attest to His Deity.

I hope I have accomplished something out of love for men and a love for God and so invite you to learn more about the Jesus who is the Son of the Father, more so than He is the son of a judge. This is a relationship I pray you will seek with Him. Check this link:

www.cchemet.com

Maybe there's some way we can trade emails.

justjerod, you forgot............










..well, nothing.

Justjerod, I hope that my comments find you in good health. I also pray that you find peace and happiness especially when going through divorce.
Back to our debate, I had hoped that you would have shared your own sincere thoughts when it came to your understanding of Islam and of the Arabic language, instead of choosing to copy and paste from a site that is ran by bunch of Orientalists, Think-tank Zionist organizations heavily funded to twist the truth and to get people confused thus they give up. I will give you the benefit of doubt and think that you’re a nice guy who’s a true devout believer looking for the truth, your style was all about scoring points, to be triumphant towards the end to deliver your final blow, inviting me to learn about the true God and become an Evangelist. I will not hide my feelings regarding the jurisprudence you follow, The Evangelists. They have gone against everything Jesus thought us. You see my brother, and I call you my brother in humanity and I wish no harm to you, yet you don’t look at me the same, so long I don’t follow your faith and beliefs, Judgment has been passed on me, I am the doomed one! Evangelists are the extremist Christian sect equivalent to the Wahabi’s we have in Islam, the Jurisprudence Bin Laden practices.
To begin, try to use text by someone who can at least translate Arabic! Arabic happens to be one of the most intricate languages known to man, the language the Holy Quran was delivered in through the Angel Gabriel, and was preserved by God. For over 1400 years not one word has been changed, regardless what sect of Islam you are we all have one Book.
The name Gabriel in Arabic it becomes Jibreel, Jesus is referred to as Yassuu’ Issa Ibnu Mariam, which translates to Jesus the son of Mary, Same name Christian Arabs refer  to Jesus in Arabic, just if you don’t know, Aramic and Arabic are very close, same with Hebrew, you will find many shared words between the two. How do you explain the indiscriminate killing of Arab Christians by Israelis, or when the Crusades invaded Palestine and barbarically killed everyone, Jews Christians and Muslims! Ignorance of the Arabic Language goes much further than biblical texts; it even affects me in the way I write my own name. You see, my name is written only in one precise way, but when it comes to English, my name is written in many ways, Hussein, Hossein, Hussain, Hassin, and to make the matters worse, Even our Media here brings those supposedly experts in the Arabic language and use terminologies such as Jihad, Jihadists as examples, and people here get scared of those words… Jihad to you means terrorism, to a Muslim, true meaning of Jihad is anytime a human does good deeds to help humanity, anytime a man goes out and work hard to support his family, and Jihad also applies to self defense, not when the Wahabi’s decide to blow themselves up in between innocent people they call it Jihad, A distorted understanding of the word. I bet you didn’t know this?
More to try to divert the readers from finding the truth, the author states lies over and over that there’s no evidence that the bible has been tampered with, could you tell me who wrote the bible? Did you know that there are over 70 bibles that are completely different from one another, from contradicting stories to false accusations all written by men never met Jesus? Let’s look at King James Version; did you know that the 1980’s version is different from the version printed in 1990? Christian scholars decided to get together in 1990 and take out two chapters from the bible, claiming that it no longer applies to today’s lifestyle. As if God only applies to one period of time. I ask, what has changed in the human race since Jesus’ time and now, besides technology absolutely nothing, we still plot, lie, cheat, kill and yes you still have lots of goodness in us. This is clear evidence that the bible has been changed by man, it’s been tampered with.
I ask again, how can a child be born a sinner? Where is the justice of God? My understanding of a religion is by how its people conduct their affairs. Let’s talk about God’s justice. Prior to Islam, when they were worshipping idols in Arabia, women had no rights, many times little girls were buried alive after birth, they considered women as shameful, Islam changed all that, 1400 years ago women could vote, have equal rights, and they could own land and transfer titles in their names, did you know that women here in the US didn’t get such right until the early 1900’s? Let’s talk about justice some more, wasn’t Slavery committed in the name of religion? The KKK exists based on a religious Christian doctrine; Hitler killed Jews with the pure blessings of the Catholic Pope.
Another illogical point you tried to make.  Did Jesus call himself Christian? The word Christian came from Christ, Jesus couldn’t possible call himself Christian, the follower of himself? Or Jews, the followers of the tribe Judah, or Buddhists, the followers of Buddha? Perhaps if we were following the same standards, Muslims then be called Mohammadains? Prophet Mohammad is the final prophet sent by God, he worshiped God just like we do, followed his commandments just like we do. We Muslims do not worship Prophet Mohammad, he is dead, Jesus is not dead, Jesus will be the Messiah as ordered by God.
What is the meaning of Islam? Islam means that who submits to one and only creator, the one who believes in the oneness of one God. That applies to all prophets, From Adam, Noah, Abraham, in Arabic Ibrahim, trust me they are the same just don’t get caught up in the trickery of translation, Moses or Mussa in Arabic, Jesus or Issa in Arabic, just to add quicly, English is not the standard language of Christianity, bible was written in Arabic way before it was introduced to English. So yes, All prophets of God are Muslim. You claiming that Islam is trying to discredit Jesus and make Mohammad the only relevant one is totally false, Jesus was mentioned over 70 times in the Quran, were as Prophet Mohammad was only mentioned 4 times. There’s a Whole verse in the Quran that is named Surat Marriam, or the verse of Mary, the mother of Jesus.
NO ONE IS GREATER THAN GOD AND NO ONE CAN DIRECT HIM.... BUT JESUS
ACKNOWLEDGED SOMEONE GREATER THAN HIMSELF WHO’S WILL WAS DISTINCT FROM HIS OWN

Perhaps the clearest  indication  we  have  that  Jesus  and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the  same, come again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in  John  14:28:  "My  Father is greater than I." When someone referred  to  him  as  good  master  in  Luke  18:19, Jesus responded: "Why callest thou me  good?  There is none good but one, that  is God..." furthermore, Jesus drew  clear  distinctions  between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." (John  8:42)  Jesus  gave clear evidence of  his subordination to God,  rather  than  his  equality with God, when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but Thine be done" and in John 5:30, "I
Seek not mine own will but the will  of  the Father which has sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.
Then you mention irrelevant people such as Yasser Arafat and what he had to say about Jesus, he’s a politician and not a scholar, he was a secular one nonetheless.
My final question to you, what happens if you bought a car or a new piece of machinery, or new software without an owner’s instructional manual? Do you think God would ever create this entire universe without an instructional manual, a manual that came directly from him unaltered?
Logic, Reason my brother… I don’t ask to score points against you here, I don’t ask that you revert and become Muslim, I just hope that you regard me as another human being created by our magnificent creator, who deserves the same human rights, dignity and the right to live in peace and tranquility just like you do, and If I succeeded in accomplishing that goal in only you, that will mean that you too will plant the seeds of goodness in your children, they will plant it in theirs, so one and so forth, this way we create a world full of Love, respect, and let the language of reason be louder than that of the language of gun.
Salam, Peace, Shalom :)
I wrote my email before.
mustbtold@gmail.com
http://gottobetold.blogspot.com/

Hussein, do you even know your History? Let me rephrase this, do you know History outside of the Quran and Islam Inventors and Inventions? I'm being dead serious; cause if you had a good and I mean a good understanding of Timelines, Historic Events of the World, The Dark Ages all the way through the Elizabethan Era, to the Revolutionary War to present day, there would be NO WAY you would blog the things your blogging. Now, I would ask you about your B.C. History but with your Adam and Eve blog already shared (Which was masterful by the way, clearly being sarcastic) that blog right there answered my question…

O and your statement about Hitler getting the Popes blessing in killing the Jews is the biggest bunch of garbage there ever was… FYI the Pope immediately before World War II was Pius XI, who wrote an encyclical condemning National Socialism called Mit Brennender Sorge. Now, when that pope died in 1939 he was succeeded by Pope Pius XII, who had previously been Vatican Secretary of State. In that role he frequently spoke out against the Nazis, including one notable speech to 250,000 people at Lourdes in 1935 where he said that the Nazis… "Are in reality only miserable plagiarists who dress up old errors with new tinsel it does not make any difference whether they flock to the banners of social revolution, whether they are guided by a false concept of the world and of life, or whether they are possessed by the superstition of a race and blood cult."

Now tell me, where is his endorsement to Hitler for him to go ahead and murder the Jews?  Nice try though, but like I have come to be saying a lot when it comes to you, you are gonna have to try harder…

Just so you know I am VERY well read when it comes to History, not to mention I have an incredible memory... so I ask you again; do you even know your History?

You did get one fact right; yes there are many different versions of Bibles... Now can you tell me why that is, hmmmmmm? (Not that I don't adore your contradictory statements, clearly being sarcastic again) But your argument can only go so far with out sounding and becoming redundant.  

Ha ha, yup, that egg is looking more and more white every time I looks at it.

Rose… For me, the reason I blog is so I can share and exchange information so perhaps I can learn to have a better understanding of others. God says in the holy Quran: “We created you nations and tribes so you may know one another, those of you closest to God are the more pious ones”.
To me, the Quran is the source of truth, but I disagree with you when you say that my only knowledge comes from the Quran, Even in the Quran God says “Seek Knowledge even if it was in China”.
God doesn’t want us to be limited, when I state any historical fact on here, you must understand that I am acknowledging that you are a very intelligent human being who will do her research and get to the bottom of truth. Why do you get upset if the pope did bless Hitler is his holocaust, just do your research and you will know that what I wrote is true. Why should I be bothered if a man who’s a Muslim commits a heinous crime, why would I be bothered since he in no way represents me or the Muslims. When Mohammad Ali the boxer visited ground zero in NYC after the two building collapsed, a reporter asked him, Mr. Ali, how do you feel about sharing the same faith with those terrorists that blew up these buildings and killed those people, Mohammad Ali replied to the reporter by saying (How do you feel with sharing the same faith with Hitler?) Do these Cardinals and priests who molested children represent you or me, let alone Jesus in any way? Not me I can tell you that much.
Long-buried Vatican files reveal a new and shocking indictment of World War II's Pope Plus XII: that in pursuit of absolute power he helped Adolf Hitler destroy German Catholic political opposition, betrayed the Jews of Europe, and sealed a deeply cynical pact with a 20th-century devil.
The eggs in my refrigerator happen to be organic, their colors are brown, beige, some are even green, but no whites… How about a nice delicious omelet for breakfast… Yessss sounds yummy:)

So, what happened here? THAT was edited out? I'm confused as to your standards, my editor friends.

The Bible does say that Isreal is the Holy land...but it doesn't say anything about the people living there.  

Actually it says the Jews are his chosen people all over the place, and that they are what make up a special group of 120,000 in Revelation.

SouthernLady:
In Islamic burial practice, it is considered very important to allow the body to properly decay and enrich the soil that is Earth. As Muslims believe humans were made from clay, they believe the body should be returned to the clay (soil) from which it came. So, it is actually against Islmaic belief to "buffer" the body from being properly decomposed, by putting it into boxes or embalming it.
The Islamic funeral consists of: washing the body (usually done by the closest relatives of the deceased), wrapping it entirely in a very long shroud cloth (usually made of woven linen or cotton without any dyes), having the funeral, which involves making prayers for the spirit of the deceased, and then burying the body directly into the soil. Grave markers may, or may not, be placed on the grave. And imagine... all that has to be done within 24 hours of the person's final breath.
For preventing the body from having time to decay above-ground, as you may have guessed. This was how it was done for centuries in the middle east, before people had freezers for corpses to be preserved in. But even with the advent of the freezer, Muslims still do it the same way their ancestors did. But let us note, Palestinians very often have to make do with no electricity for most of the day -- maybe a couple of hours if they're lucky. So for them, the old way is simply still the only way.

Thanks Ayesha.  I appreciate your 6/27 post.  

Kind-of a waste of bytes, eh?

Its amazing how many callous and stupid people have posted here.  The event is the burial of small children, babies.  Those children did not ask to be born in a place where armies bomb their homes and shoot at them.  Forget the stupid arguments about how bad "the other side" is, and figure out how to stop terrifying children, no matter what religeon their fathers believe in.   If you're a Jew or a Palestinian, and you think "the other side" causes all of the worlds problems, you should be ashamed of yourselves.

sparkyModestoCa
April 28, 2008  said
"They are burying them onto to straight dirt!!!!    EEWWWW"

Hold on a second.  Desecrating a body, pumping it full of preservatives and mummifying it, showing it to your friends and family, then sticking it in a rot resistant wooden box which is then placed inside a concreate vault, allowing almost no decomposure, is not disgusting but putting people in the ground is?  
Go go christian values.  You idits have it wrong again.